[LandGreen]

Something went amiss in the system design , be it placement choice of components, and it certainly was never tested fully.

Thats more of a consensus, I cant argue there, atleast we agree there was a design proccess not a last minute fixer up.

I have a comedy sketch of my own mind, where the Queen visits LR to see the first ever ingenium placed in a DS, great pomp and fanfare ,
next scene two burly LR employees up jumping around on the top of the engine trying to force it in. Meanwhile Prince Philip wanders around trying to find someone of mixed race to blame for the fiasco.

:lol: But there must have been a last minute bodged decision in there somewhere. How do we know this? Because the car should have had the Ingenium engine from launch and it didn't because it was still waiting for the AdBlue certification. AdBlue - SCRF - its all the same thing. This engine was late because this set up wasn't ready in time. At some point I find it hjghly likely that conversations between engineers and management took place just like VDS imagined and that the engineers lost out and were told in very direct terms to stop dithering about lack of space and FFS PRODUCE SOMETHING WE CAN SELL SOON!

 

[Barnsh]

+1. ☝
Money , time pressure! = mistakes.

 

[Muddywheels]

I agree LG

 

[chicken george]

So they accidently fitted a very modern emmisions system, a system that is designed to take nox reduction to a level that conventional scr struggles with.

 

[Muddywheels]

No they spent years designing yet launched a new model with old engine then rushed new engine to meet deadline

 

[Chippy]

Do we know for sure that this was the case?

The other supposition is that they had to fulfill a commitment to take the agreed number of 2.2 litre engines or pay a penalty for not doing so.

 

[VeryDiscoSport]

So they accidently fitted a very modern emmisions system, a system that is designed to take nox reduction to a level that conventional scr struggles with.

Not accidentally. But very probably, based on what is known today, it was an ill-advised exhaust architecture chemically speaking, given the physical architectural constraints of the target vehicle(s).

This was a very important, strategic, choice of equipment for 5 LR models so would have been the subject of board-level discussions and representations from many departments. It is possible that the chemists present argued more effectively for their preferred chemistry set than other voices present, leaving the powertrain engineers stuck with challenge of how to fit it in, a problem made worse because the power unit had been designed to run very efficiently. This problem, as we know to our cost, has proved extremely difficult to get right. But JM can't have been the only bidder for this very lucrative coatings contract, can they? There ARE competing chemical solutions to meet Euro 6 after all, and other architectures exist on the market. What clinched a multi-million contract for the chosen supplier?

You ever hear the phrase "people buy from people they like"? Anyone with a LinkedIn account will very quickly identify a very close connection between JM and JLR which might go some way to explain it. Don't get me wrong. It IS an elegant, very compulsive, solution to achieving ultra-low N oxides but somebody didn't do their homework on its limitations in relation to soot burning. Please go back and read the JM pdf paper on page 1 of the Bleeding Edge thread - it's all there, a beautiful piece of prima facie evidence written by JM themselves. A 4 gm / litre soot load takes 30 minutes to burn off the SCRF coating compared to 10 to 20 minutes for SCF. PLUS, the 10 to 15 minutes warm up time. There you have the heart of the matter - 15 + 30 minutes = 45 minutes. Now look at the definition of "normal" driving with its mention of occasional journeys of 1 hour. They had to include this part to ensure that the ARs are successful because that's how long it takes one to complete.

This is the pdf from JM https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/download/file.php?id=6778

 

[Muddywheels]

Do we know for sure that this was the case?

The other supposition is that they had to fulfill a commitment to take the agreed number of 2.2 litre engines or pay a penalty for not doing so.

No we don't but why spend millions/billions designing a new model and tooling a production line to fit an obsolete engine for 1 year unless the replacement wasn't ready

If they had to use up engines already ordered knowing the legislation changes coming they could of continued fitting them in existing evoque but really should of planned things better

 

[VeryDiscoSport]

.........But JM can't have been the only bidder for this very lucrative coatings contract, can they? There ARE competing chemical solutions to meet Euro 6 after all, and other architectures exist on the market.....

For example, the competitive solution from BASF (claiming to be the market leader) who have an extremely compact design: similar chemistry but with all the components incorporated into a single tube, which they call SCR-2F. I'm just saying that SCRF from JM isn't the only game in town if you want to put the catalytic coating on the filter screen.

Excellent video explanation of SCRF / SCR-2F.
http://www.catalysts.basf.com/p02/USWeb-Internet/catalysts/en/function/conversions:/publish/content/microsites/catalysts/prods-inds/mobile-emissions/SCRFilterAnimation4.swf

 

[chicken george]

In the face of such experienced insider knowledge and expertise, and an obvious high regard for the truth. I concede, there will be no further argument from me, happy days gents

 

[LandGreen]

Insider knowledge surely doesn't get any better than this scientific paper from Lasitha Cumaranatunge, Technical Program Manager JM, presenting at *CLEERS early in 2016.

https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/download/file.php?id=6778

I've read it all the way through and found it to be loaded with "insider knowledge and expertise" on every one of its 31 pages and, as one would expected from a US Government-funded initiative, it seems to have the ultimate "regard for the truth". What it states as clear is day is that the SCR on FIlter solution is just not very good at soot burning in its active regeneration mode - and that is the price to be paid for it being better at NOx reduction. That's it. Well done, you have got it spot on at last.

*Crosscut Lean Exhaust Emissions Reduction Simulations is an initiative funded by the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) Vehicle Technologies Office to support the development of accurate computer simulation tools for use in the design, calibration, and control of next generation engine/emissions control systems that maximize efficiency while complying with emissions regulations.

 

[PhilMabbots17]

PAGE 29:
The soot burn efficiency in a Pt catalyzed CSF is significantly higher than an SCRF® catalyst (or an uncoated filter) under active regen conditions (550-600 C)
No significant differences were observed in soot combustion efficiency with and without NH3 injection for an SCRF® catalyst under active regen conditions (≥550 C).
Location of soot in the filter seems to only have a minor impact on the soot combustion efficiency under active regeneration conditions.
There are clear benefits to using an SCRF® catalyst and we need to adapt a suitable active regeneration strategy.
A 4g/L soot load on an SCRF® catalyst can be fully regenerated at 600 C for 30 mins
Increasing filter inlet temps to >600 C will be beneficial to reduce length of regen event

I wonder whether they have actually adapted "a suitable active regeneration strategy" yet. Or did I just dump a test vehicle on an unsuspecting second-hand market.

 

[VeryDiscoSport]

Are there still some test vehicles out there? It depends how you define "test". After the 3 replacement parts had been ordered for my car (see above) the dealer was given strict instructions not to fit anything until they had reported all the part numbers back to the same JLR Engineers who'd been on site to make the diagnosis. They said they needed to confirm that the SCRF was the "latest version" and also compatible with the other parts and the rest of the car. This happened in the middle of October 2017.

 

[BFGDSMan]

I'm reaching the end of the road with this, JLR seem utterly impotent regarding this, and if they think that I'm going to be forking out £200 every 4 months for an oil change on top of a £400+ service, then they can whistle.

I'm off to test drive this later on today, with a view to swapping out:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201710260664336?sort=sponsored&radius=1501&onesearchad=Used&onesearchad=New&model=DISCOVERY%20SPORT&postcode=cv471hh&advertising-location=at_cars&make=LAND%20ROVER&fuel-type=Petrol&page=1

Just apply a bit of caution, petrols weren't sold in the UK back then so it's ex-development car (V plate most likely if so) or an import. No problem as such, but spec and value may be affected.

Edit - having read other thread I'm probably teaching you to suck eggs over the plates!

Saw this car for sale 6 months ago! As a manual HSE LUx it cant be UK spec, let alone a petrol. Suspect its an ROI model as it looks like ROW spec. Aside from that it won't be a development car as they are either kept internally by JLR or scrapped (so no non-proven parts make their way to a customer); in common with all car manufacturers.

 

[Badgerface]

I'm sorry, but it IS UK spec, registered by JLR as a development vehicle for Press purposes in late 2015. It's the first thing that I checked before I schlepped down there to look at it. It is also an Auto, so perhaps you were looking at an entirely different vehicle?

 

[BFGDSMan]

I'm sorry, but it IS UK spec, registered by JLR as a development vehicle for Press purposes in late 2015. It's the first thing that I checked before I schlepped down there to look at it. It is also an Auto, so perhaps you were looking at an entirely different vehicle?

Mea Culpa - always happy to put my hands up when wrong!

 

[BFGDSMan]

I have now solved all of my Service Interval problems - I've just ordered a Mercedes E Class Estate (12.3" COMAND [working satnav!], Massage seats, LED headlights, electric towbar, Self driving tech etc etc) for less price than the best spec (but ultimately not well equipped) DS. This Service issue has just finally broken me, an ardent and loyal LR driver (last 11 years and 8 cars) willing to buy British and fly the flag.

Lets just hope nothing else breaks between now and June - reckon that will only be another 2 AdBlue fills and one more service....

Please don't hate me!

 

[VeryDiscoSport]

I have now solved all of my Service Interval problems - I've just ordered a Mercedes E Class Estate (12.3" COMAND [working satnav!], Massage seats, LED headlights, electric towbar, Self driving tech etc etc) for less price than the best spec (but ultimately not well equipped) DS. This Service issue has just finally broken me, an ardent and loyal LR driver (last 11 years and 8 cars) willing to buy British and fly the flag.

Lets just hope nothing else breaks between now and June - reckon that will only be another 2 AdBlue fills and one more service....

Please don't hate me!

For me it was a heartbreaking decision, like having to euthanise a favourite pet. Good luck with the Merc.

And thank you for all the hard work making the videos.

 

[Chippy]

I have now solved all of my Service Interval problems - I've just ordered a Mercedes E Class Estate (12.3" COMAND [working satnav!], Massage seats, LED headlights, electric towbar, Self driving tech etc etc) for less price than the best spec (but ultimately not well equipped) DS. This Service issue has just finally broken me, an ardent and loyal LR driver (last 11 years and 8 cars) willing to buy British and fly the flag.

Lets just hope nothing else breaks between now and June - reckon that will only be another 2 AdBlue fills and one more service....

Please don't hate me!

How could we hate you? A very understandable move and you've no doubt picked a super car. Is the delivery time of 5/6 months standard for the E Class?

 

[Muddywheels]

Totally understand BFGDSMan - moved away from JLR myself after 16 years/10 vehicles (not counting 3 rejected) because of the poor service and issues

It was a hard choice but the right choice in the end- good luck with your Merc :mrgreen: