Just had a really good JLR experience which I know may be a rarity these days but I have a MY17 DS and in the handbook it clearly states that driving style may require the need for oil changes between scheduled services.

My car was booked into Hatfield's Shrewsbury today for an MOT and I happened to mention that my oil service was due in 1650 miles. The car was serviced in Oct 18 And has done 10000 miles since (5K mine since June) and without even asking, they told me they would put in a claim to JLR for a free oil change. As long as the car had done under 55K they were able to do it so I'm really happy as I wasn't expecting anything.

Nice to have a good local dealer with exceptional customer service.

 

I used this method on my D4 a couple of weeks ago to remove the early service warning and it worked .

 

I want to do a "half way to service" oil change - is there a way to reset the oil dilution counter my self?

Some time ago I found somwhere this text:

First you have to open the bonnet
Turn the ignition key to the "ON" position without starting the engine, If your car has push-button start, press the "Start" button without touching the brake pedal.
Open the driver's door
Hold the accelerator and brake pedals all the way down until you see SERVICE RESETTING in the dash
Turn off your car and start the engine to see if the warning went away.

(I never tested it by myself)

 

I want to do a "half way to service" oil change - is there a way to reset the oil dilution counter my self?

 

Hi,

Here some statistics and metrics after our first service at 31400 incl. Oil analysis (first oil change):
Average fuel consumption: 7,7 l/100km
Average AddBlue consumption: 1,3 l/1000km
Oil dilution: 5,8%

Histogram of travel length:
0-10km 26,6%
10-30km 19,4%
30-70km 42,4%
70-200km 10,7%
200-500km 1,0%

Service counter:

It is interresting that at the time where the Service counter has not counted down we used the pre-heater before every trip. Maybe a helpfull info.

Oil check result: (sorry it's german)

 

The simplistic explanation favoured by JLR for oil dilution is that it is the result of incomplete regenerations. This can make it appear that drivers are causing the problem. The truth (as JLR has confirmed) is that the architecture of the DS exhaust demands longer and more frequent periods of regeneration which serves to increase the probability that the same journey will interrupt a regeneration on this car but not, say, on a Jaguar XE which has the same engine but not the "challenged" exhaust.

The fact that oil dilution correlates well with post injection facilitated the creation of the algorithm that estimates it. I found a 10 year old presentation from the genesis period of this vital technology. It is an interesting read for the more technically minded amongst us and was given at the DEER conference held in 2009. Apologies if this has appeared before.

 

Also the other reason it's not showing up for others is that unlike JLR they just officially reduced the service intervals and didn't set expectation sky high at 21,000 miles. If you get close to the stated interval then you're less likely to complain even if it's 10k vs. 14k. 10k vs 21k though is a different matter. We have no idea what dilution levels other manufacturers are running as they haven't needed to be scrutinised so much.

Now if you search for blocked DPFs, you get much more than just JLR...

 

It's often been said that all EU6 diesels suffer from oil dilution, reduced service intervals and other problems associated with driving style. To see whether this is true I went to Google and entered the following search: diesel fio dilution eu6 service interval.

The top ten responses include nine related to current Jaguar Land Rover products. Google's "Related searches" also suggested that I might want to search on:

discovery oil dilution issue
range rover sport oil dilution
evoque oil dilution
discovery sport oil dilution
2.0 ingenium engine problems
velar oil dilution
land rover discovery forum
ingenium engine oil dilution

Not just a JLR issue then.

There a few people (some might even be the same person ) posting regularly using these terms on JLR forums so perhaps this is skewing the results? The Search Engines just index what they find - so if the community is generating lots of info it will show up!

 

Sadly there's nothing in this LRM article that hadn't already appeared somewhere on this forum by the end of 2017. Also it's inaccurate and incomplete. Someone should make it clear that this problem isn't exclusive to short journeys done in 16-17MY L538/L550 vehicles.

 

Of course we could just forget about the "21000 mile/2 year" service and service our cars sensibly on an annual/12000 mile basis. Not all Google results concern JLR - here's a very sensible one regarding Audi, Mercedes etc, which sets out very clearly what we all know, but in relation to German cars. The recommendation is to service annually and use premium grade fuel. Interestingly it does also suggest that at least some German models let you know that regen is happening by flashing the glowplug light. Oh - and it mentions "driving style" too.
https://www.autotecnic.co.uk/maintenance/diesel-particulate-filters-dpf-technical-info/

There was one mention each for "AUDI" and "MERCEDES" - but only because these names appeared in a marketing-oriented banner at the top. The company wrote this page to advertise their service-based wares: "We specialise in Engine Management Diagnostics & Computerised Wheel Alignment for all German Cars."
The web page from Autotecnic [sic] contains generic marketing boilerplate and has nothing to do with the specific problems affecting D8 cars.

Some people who bought DS and Evoque motor cars were misled about short journeys and DPF clogging. But everybody who expected a 21,000 mile service interval without incurring levels of diesel dilution that "will result in engine failure" was equally misled. Known faults (unresolved engineering "challenges") responsible for both of these problems were never disclosed to prospective buyers. According to recent accounts, many of the affected owners now find themselves being financially penalised as JLR and its dealers harden their stance over who should pay for additional oil changes, DPF replacement and so forth. This will get worse as more cars develop problems reaching the end of the warranty period. This did not arise as the result of an unfortunate accident: the evidence suggests that it was planned in advance.

People were told one thing.....

….but not another. This crucial information was withheld to prevent customer sales objections:

View attachment 9557
View attachment 7162

The reason this happened is unique to the D8 diesels made by JLR from 2015 onwards. The obstructing bulkhead and 70 cm of pipework has no parallel in any other car from this or any other manufacturer - perhaps because most car manufacturers carefully measure the engine compartment before selecting an engine. JLR's engineers didn't suddenly discover that this problem existed in 2016, they would have fully understood the implications of the "challenged" exhaust system long before a single car had left the factory.

Arguably, engineering should have persuaded executive management to come clean and change the service intervals to 12,000 miles while they had the chance. But that would have deterred many buyers and maybe that's why they left it where it was. Doing this enabled them to sell more cars: I know one victim who stated categorically that they would not have bought a diesel DS had it not been for the perceived benefits of extended service intervals. There are hundreds of others who would say the same thing. JLR eventually did change the brochures but some dealer sales staff still fudged the issue if it came up or created innovative ways to secure sales.

Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006 outlines the risks for any person who makes a fraudulent representation with the intention of making a gain for themselves (or someone else) or exposes another person to the risk of loss. The attached paper from Burges-Salmon published in January 2016 explained how this legislation could easily have been used against VW for making money from fraudulent sales of polluting vehicles: "Volkswagen appears to have admitted making false representations to customers regarding the emissions of its vehicles and the vehicles' compliance with EU emissions standards. It is unlikely that prosecutors will struggle to establish that these false representations were made with the intention of making an economic gain. Prosecutors are also likely to be able to establish that the conduct was performed with the required state of mind. The maximum penalty for this offence is ten years in prison, a fine, or both."

A few months later the government announced no action would be taken against VW here in the UK, a story that was covered by The Guardian in July 2016*. Presumably the UK felt that there was little it could do that would add materially to the prosecution being undertaken by the German authorities: in June 2018 Reuters announced that a one billion Euro fine had been levied against VW for its "emissions cheating" activities.

* https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jul/15/government-is-letting-vw-off-the-hook-over-emissions-scandal-say-mps

 

Of course we could just forget about the "21000 mile/2 year" service and service our cars sensibly on an annual/12000 mile basis. Not all Google results concern JLR - here's a very sensible one regarding Audi, Mercedes etc, which sets out very clearly what we all know, but in relation to German cars. The recommendation is to service annually and use premium grade fuel. Interestingly it does also suggest that at least some German models let you know that regen is happening by flashing the glowplug light. Oh - and it mentions "driving style" too.
https://www.autotecnic.co.uk/maintenance/diesel-particulate-filters-dpf-technical-info/

Wish i could take a sensible approach and service every 12000 miles instead of the 5000 average at the moment! and its not down to my driving style or fuel, i am not alone with this issue but if land rover want to keep pretending all is rosy in the garden then hey ho.

 

Of course we could just forget about the "21000 mile/2 year" service and service our cars sensibly on an annual/12000 mile basis. Not all Google results concern JLR - here's a very sensible one regarding Audi, Mercedes etc, which sets out very clearly what we all know, but in relation to German cars. The recommendation is to service annually and use premium grade fuel. Interestingly it does also suggest that at least some German models let you know that regen is happening by flashing the glowplug light. Oh - and it mentions "driving style" too.
https://www.autotecnic.co.uk/maintenance/diesel-particulate-filters-dpf-technical-info/

 

Just tried it and, as predicted, the first eight responses were related to dilution on Land Rovers. Not sure if the first one counts or not...
View attachment 7162

 

What an awful lot of posters forget is that the algorithm in distance to service doesn't just compute probable distance based on stop/starts and regens, it also factors in original timescales.

For example, if an early oil change was made at say circa 11k and 9 months, the distance reset would not override time to next service, and the vehicle would calculate (fairly quickly) that the the service would be due in 13 months best, adjusted for journey start/stop times over a period of real time.

To give this to you in English/laymans terms - my own personal DS is not due a service until next July. It had an interim oil change at the end of July this year, and the service counter has leapt down from 19850 to 12200 inside of 3000 motorway miles. Some of you might be alarmed at that, personally I'm not. It's in keeping with TIME to next service. If it drops to 3000 miles inside the next 3 months,then all of you fretting will have a point, but I am certain that it won't. It's not just counting down oil services due to journey regens, it's also factoring in time to service as well. Something that I can guarantee that you are all overlooking in the grand scheme of things.

Drive the car and enjoy it. Stop worrying unduly, life is too short (as is vehicle life!)

 

Google's Related Searches uses AI to predict what I was "probably" looking for based on the words that I entered into my search. It's got nothing to do with my personal history. It's a kind of intelligent guess based on what other people looked for when they also used those words.

As well as arming you with keyword phrases to fit into your articles, related searches also give you a massive insight into who your customers are and what their intent is.

More here:

https://www.smartinsights.com/search-engine-optimisation-seo/seo-strategy/using-related-searches-google-helps-boost-seo/

 

Yes, I'd thought of that but I always delete cached pages, browsing history, etc automatically on exit. The previous search was done from my ipad but I just got practically the same results on this desktop machine. I've tried Bing, Dogpile, Duckduckgo, Hotbot, Lycos, and Yahoo. The results are always the same give or take when the search string entered is "diesel fio dilution eu6 service interval" - Lycos and Bing I've never even visited before. I'm not sure what else can be done to create a virgin search.

Try it and see what you get: https://www.google.com/search?q=diesel+fio+dilution+eu6+service+interval

 

It's often been said that all EU6 diesels suffer from oil dilution, reduced service intervals and other problems associated with driving style. To see whether this is true I went to Google and entered the following search: diesel fio dilution eu6 service interval.

The top ten responses include nine related to current Jaguar Land Rover products. Google's "Related searches" also suggested that I might want to search on:

discovery oil dilution issue
range rover sport oil dilution
evoque oil dilution
discovery sport oil dilution
2.0 ingenium engine problems
velar oil dilution
land rover discovery forum
ingenium engine oil dilution

Not just a JLR issue then.

I'm not sure that's an entirely valid 'experiment', given your likely previous search history unless you'd cleared all cookies and ran an anonymous browser session?

 

It's often been said that all EU6 diesels suffer from oil dilution, reduced service intervals and other problems associated with driving style. To see whether this is true I went to Google and entered the following search: diesel fio dilution eu6 service interval.

The top ten responses include nine related to current Jaguar Land Rover products. Google's "Related searches" also suggested that I might want to search on:

discovery oil dilution issue
range rover sport oil dilution
evoque oil dilution
discovery sport oil dilution
2.0 ingenium engine problems
velar oil dilution
land rover discovery forum
ingenium engine oil dilution

Not just a JLR issue then.

 

With all due respect to the OP, the list should now read.

Since September 2015, when deliveries of Ingenium diesels began, JLR has:

1) delivered cars that concealed the problem from owners due to faulty "software";
2) denied the existence of the problem when it surfaced, allowing dealers to reset service counters and skip vital oil changes;
3) blamed the high oil dilution on a variety of factors, most of which boiled down to "software";
4) blamed "driving style" when they could no longer get away with blaming "software";
5) admitting in a leaked document that the problem is real and caused by the exhaust architecture and hardware;
6) admitted in the same document to changing marketing materials to deflect future customer dissatisfaction;
7) admitted in another document that, actually, the DS IS more heavily affected by Dilution and DPF blockage due to the longer distance from the engine to the DPF;
8) told dealers to advise certain customers to steer away from the diesel DS altogether to minimise their risk of experiencing oil dilution or a blocked DPF (these customers would apparently be OK if they bought an XE, according to JLR);
9) changed the dilution trigger from 6% to 10% to squeeze out 66% more miles between oil changes; and
10) termed this erosion of failure margins a "software enhancement". :lol: :lol: :lol:

I've paid to watch less entertaining circuses.

I can confirm that Land Rover are currently working on a software enhancement in regards to the concerns that have been raised.

Unfortunately at this time, we have not been provided with an update as to when this will be released.

Once I have received further information I will arrange for the details to be posted in this forum.

I apologise for any inconvenience that this may cause.

Thanks,
Becci

Sums it up perfectly 👍

A decent car spoiled by corporate greed and corporate contempt for customers.

 

I think we might apply Occams Razor to understand why Engineering looked for a solution for 2 to 3 years then apparently gave up and instead made a software change that has the effect of hiding the problem, disingenuously terming this a "software enhancement". How is this an enhancement except in a virtual, pretend world?

Put yourself in JLR's position for a minute. Sales of DS and Evoque models were down by a third when this (N289) was done and dealers had been warned not to sell these cars to a broad swathe of potential buyers because of known issues with diesel dilution and DPF clogging. The dilution problem, according to another JLR document, affects three specific models, two of which happen to be the compay's best sellers. From an engineering perspective it was known that the problem is insoluble without a hardware modification. The oil changes were costing them a small fortune and people were successfully rejecting cars on the basis of this problem. Diesel already had a bad reputation following VW while EU6 diesels make people doubly sensitive about DPF and oil dilution issues. Combine these commercial pressures with a need to make $2.5 billion of cost savings and a cynical software change might have been seen as the quickest and cheapest way out of a choke hold. Anyway, why stop after one lie? Remind me again why this came about on the DS/Evoque and not the XE?

Ah, yes, neck ties. People who know what went on will tell you off the record that Design refused to give Engineering the space they needed to fit the XE DPF behind the transverse Ingenium engine. That decision was, as we know, the single root cause behind all these problems. Now, who was it that made the decisions back then? Who reported to whom? So who ultimately signs off the engineering decisions today?

Well feck me. Once I stopped looking at the trees I suddenly became aware of the forest.

 

I guess they key question is why do you feel 6% 'safe' and 10% isn't?

Actually I would prefer no diesel dilution but this is the cost of driving a diesel in 2019. 6% has been used on the XE since 2015 and that car doesn't need N289 because, unlike the DS, it actually works as designed and advertised. The SCN said more than 6% FIO risked engine failure. Going to 10% is a compromise commercial decision - high enough to avoid a few more early oil changes, but not high enough to cause JLR to run out of replacement engines. Any fool knows that increasing oil dilution erodes the MTBF margins - I just don't want mine eroded any further than they are already.

I hear fuel in oil dilution is practically zero on a petrol.

SIM Message.PNG

The point I was trying to make (badly), is that the same people who said 6% was safe are now saying 10% is safe. Is this a financially led increase, or an Engineering led increase.

And yes, I'm hoping for low levels of oil dilution on my P240.....

 

With all due respect to the OP, the list should now read.

Since September 2015, when deliveries of Ingenium diesels began, JLR has:

1) delivered cars that concealed the problem from owners due to faulty "software";
2) denied the existence of the problem when it surfaced, allowing dealers to reset service counters and skip vital oil changes;
3) blamed the high oil dilution on a variety of factors, most of which boiled down to "software";
4) blamed "driving style" when they could no longer get away with blaming "software";
5) admitting in a leaked document that the problem is real and caused by the exhaust architecture and hardware;
6) admitted in the same document to changing marketing materials to deflect future customer dissatisfaction;
7) admitted in another document that, actually, the DS IS more heavily affected by Dilution and DPF blockage due to the longer distance from the engine to the DPF;
8) told dealers to advise certain customers to steer away from the diesel DS altogether to minimise their risk of experiencing oil dilution or a blocked DPF (these customers would apparently be OK if they bought an XE, according to JLR);
9) changed the dilution trigger from 6% to 10% to squeeze out 66% more miles between oil changes; and
10) termed this erosion of failure margins a "software enhancement". :lol: :lol: :lol:

I've paid to watch less entertaining circuses.

I can confirm that Land Rover are currently working on a software enhancement in regards to the concerns that have been raised.

Unfortunately at this time, we have not been provided with an update as to when this will be released.

Once I have received further information I will arrange for the details to be posted in this forum.

I apologise for any inconvenience that this may cause.

Thanks,
Becci

 

I guess they key question is why do you feel 6% 'safe' and 10% isn't?

Actually I would prefer no diesel dilution but this is the cost of driving a diesel in 2019. 6% has been used on the XE since 2015 and that car doesn't need N289 because, unlike the DS, it actually works as designed and advertised. The SCN said more than 6% FIO risked engine failure. Going to 10% is a compromise commercial decision - high enough to avoid a few more early oil changes, but not high enough to cause JLR to run out of replacement engines. Any fool knows that increasing oil dilution erodes the MTBF margins - I just don't want mine eroded any further than they are already.

I hear fuel in oil dilution is practically zero on a petrol.

 

I guess they key question is why do you feel 6% 'safe' and 10% isn't?

 

Naturally, yes. But this is a complete scan in one file, not three pieces of different sizes. I know which one I would put in my ombudsman legal folder.
I just thanked you for the original.