[VeryDiscoSport]

I'll not be investing any money in sample analysis I'd rather spend it directly on fresh oil.

I've got to challenge that statement. If you use the laboratory test route you can actually avoid paying for any oil at all - and have a much better chance of keeping your vehicle in good condition!

I'm not going to explain the logic of how this all works but it's all there in black and white in the SCN. Consider three cases:

Driver 1 - he doesn't know about the program, doesn't have a working SIM, so he just goes in for an Oil Service at 21,000 miles, completely oblivious to what's going on under the bonnet. Goodness knows what his dilution level is by the time he has a service. But he is definitely in the category Mr. Woodcock is trying to protect on page 1 because at some point his engine is likely to seize up. That's what is says on JLR headed paper.

Driver 2 - Has a working SIM and drives normally until the Service Message triggers at 8,000 miles. He presents the car and the dealer changes the oil and filter according to the program. The indicated dilution would have been above 6.1%, the actual dilution probably about 5%. He continues driving until the SIM triggers again, this time at 16,000 miles which is 250 miles too many for the good of his wallet. He must have the oil and filter changed to protect the car but this driver doesn't qualify for the free oil and filter change. He'll be persuaded to have the Oil Service done 5,000 miles early which either ticks off one of his service program freebies or costs him £500+.

Driver 3 - He has a slow pull on his pipe, pours some tea and sits down to have a good think about what's really going on. At 7,000 miles he pays for independent oil analysis on a sample he has taken himself and this comes back from the laboratory with a formal recommendation that the oil needs changing immediately because the dilution is 4.7%. He presents the findings to JLR and without question they pay for the subsequent oil and filter change. At the oil change, they find the car's estimated dilution level was 5.7% which is lower than the SIM threshold but they still perform the free oil change because the owner is backed up by an independent expert report. He drives for another 7,000 miles until the odometer reads 14,000 miles and repeats the laboratory test. It comes back exactly as it did the first time with a recommendation that it needs changing. Once again, the oil and filter are changed by the dealer and it's another freebie because the dealer follows the SCN instructions to the letter. On his third charge of fresh oil Driver 3 then completes another 7,000 miles before taking the car in for its 21,000 mile service which he is happy to pay for.

If you were in the second-hand market for a used DS in three years' time which of these three cars would you want most? And which one would you avoid like the plague?

 

[Chippy]

All very interesting but do you know the cost of a laboratory test here? I do and that's the reason for my comment.

Apart from that I'm not in the slighest bit interested in starting a long drawn out discussion with JLR every time - I'd rather sort it out directly with my dealer who's always helped me concerning for what are for me far more serious issues.

Thanks anyway for your "challenge"

 

[Barnsh]

No scaremongering at all , as I stated clearly this was historical.

Don't doubt the historical facts of oil dilution problems with various Ford and Volvo models. The 'scaremongering' I was referring to was then linking this to the DS by saying...

That's the same Ford 2.2 that was similar to the 2.4 in the old Volvo D5 which increased over time , then had a recall to resolve oil level due to fuel in oil which resulted in the ekectronic oil level indicator showing over full when checked. The Ford 2.2 was a popular engine for many manufacturers

That's a clear attempt at guilt by association, whereas there's no evidence I can find that the Ford/PSA unit as used in the Freelander 2 and DS has ever suffered from fuel dilution problems.

All vehicles with DPF that use fuel burn off regardless of engine manufacture or vehicle the engine is fitted to suffer to some extent of oil dilution by deisil .
This is a well known fact.

Older Vehicles that used injection of fuel to exhaust at DPF suffered less than the new cylinder injection method which is more efficient.

It wasn't until 2010/2011 that it became clear where the diesil was coming from, prior to this leaking injectors, crank case seal leaks and many other things were blamed for oil increase Remember this is fairly new technology.

Plus up until 2008/9 it was an option on freelander2 to order one without a DPF , guess most folks went that way ?
I'm please your car is not affected, yet.

 

[Mamil]

No scaremongering at all , as I stated clearly this was historical.

Don't doubt the historical facts of oil dilution problems with various Ford and Volvo models. The 'scaremongering' I was referring to was then linking this to the DS by saying...

That's the same Ford 2.2 that was similar to the 2.4 in the old Volvo D5 which increased over time , then had a recall to resolve oil level due to fuel in oil which resulted in the ekectronic oil level indicator showing over full when checked. The Ford 2.2 was a popular engine for many manufacturers

That's a clear attempt at guilt by association, whereas there's no evidence I can find that the Ford/PSA unit as used in the Freelander 2 and DS has ever suffered from fuel dilution problems.

All vehicles with DPF that use fuel burn off regardless of engine manufacture or vehicle the engine is fitted to suffer to some extent of oil dilution by deisil .
This is a well known fact.

Older Vehicles that used injection of fuel to exhaust at DPF suffered less than the new cylinder injection method which is more efficient.

It wasn't until 2010/2011 that it became clear where the diesil was coming from, prior to this leaking injectors, crank case seal leaks and many other things were blamed for oil increase Remember this is fairly new technology.

Plus up until 2008/9 it was an option on freelander2 to order one without a DPF , guess most folks went that way ?
I'm please your car is not affected, yet.

Thanks for the info on the history of DPF development, that's genuinely interesting, but why do you have to follow it with the snide remark about being pleased my car isn't affected...yet?

I've not had problems with any of your posts in the past Barnsh, and it seems that we generally agree on most of the issues in this thread. But I don't like the way this one is going, so for the sake of not falling out lets just leave it there eh - I'm out of this thread.

See you all in another thread

 

[Barnsh]

Don't doubt the historical facts of oil dilution problems with various Ford and Volvo models. The 'scaremongering' I was referring to was then linking this to the DS by saying...

That's a clear attempt at guilt by association, whereas there's no evidence I can find that the Ford/PSA unit as used in the Freelander 2 and DS has ever suffered from fuel dilution problems.

All vehicles with DPF that use fuel burn off regardless of engine manufacture or vehicle the engine is fitted to suffer to some extent of oil dilution by deisil .
This is a well known fact.

Older Vehicles that used injection of fuel to exhaust at DPF suffered less than the new cylinder injection method which is more efficient.

It wasn't until 2010/2011 that it became clear where the diesil was coming from, prior to this leaking injectors, crank case seal leaks and many other things were blamed for oil increase Remember this is fairly new technology.

Plus up until 2008/9 it was an option on freelander2 to order one without a DPF , guess most folks went that way ?
I'm please your car is not affected, yet.

Thanks for the info on the history of DPF development, that's genuinely interesting, but why do you have to follow it with the snide remark about being pleased my car isn't affected...yet?

I've not had problems with any of your posts in the past Barnsh, and it seems that we generally agree on most of the issues in this thread. So, for the sake of not falling out lets just leave it there eh - I'm out of this thread.

See you all in another thread

I was nearly hoping yours stays ok , that's all no offence meant at all.

It is a known issue , albeit less so in your case with an annual service

http://www.freel2.com/forum/post125803.html

And the guilt by association is here Historicaly.

 

[Barnsh]

I'll not be investing any money in sample analysis I'd rather spend it directly on fresh oil.

I've got to challenge that statement. If you use the laboratory test route you can actually avoid paying for any oil at all - and have a much better chance of keeping your vehicle in good condition!

I'm not going to explain the logic of how this all works but it's all there in black and white in the SCN. Consider three cases:

Driver 1 - he doesn't know about the program, doesn't have a working SIM, so he just goes in for an Oil Service at 21,000 miles, completely oblivious to what's going on under the bonnet. Goodness knows what his dilution level is by the time he has a service. But he is definitely in the category Mr. Woodcock is trying to protect on page 1 because at some point his engine is likely to seize up. That's what is says on JLR headed paper.

Driver 2 - Has a working SIM and drives normally until the Service Message triggers at 8,000 miles. He presents the car and the dealer changes the oil and filter according to the program. The indicated dilution would have been above 6.1%, the actual dilution probably about 5%. He continues driving until the SIM triggers again, this time at 16,000 miles which is 250 miles too many for the good of his wallet. He must have the oil and filter changed to protect the car but this driver doesn't qualify for the free oil and filter change. He'll be persuaded to have the Oil Service done 5,000 miles early which either ticks off one of his service program freebies or costs him £500+.

Driver 3 - He has a slow pull on his pipe, pours some tea and sits down to have a good think about what's really going on. At 7,000 miles he pays for independent oil analysis on a sample he has taken himself and this comes back from the laboratory with a formal recommendation that the oil needs changing immediately because the dilution is 4.7%. He presents the findings to JLR and without question they pay for the subsequent oil and filter change. At the oil change, they find the car's estimated dilution level was 5.7% which is lower than the SIM threshold but they still perform the free oil change because the owner is backed up by an independent expert report. He drives for another 7,000 miles until the odometer reads 14,000 miles and repeats the laboratory test. It comes back exactly as it did the first time with a recommendation that it needs changing. Once again, the oil and filter are changed by the dealer and it's another freebie because the dealer follows the SCN instructions to the letter. On his third charge of fresh oil Driver 3 then completes another 7,000 miles before taking the car in for its 21,000 mile service which he is happy to pay for.

If you were in the second-hand market for a used DS in three years' time which of these three cars would you want most? And which one would you avoid like the plague?

Good summary of the cases possible.

 

[Nickwill]

Just out of interest, how much does a main dealer charge for an oil and filter change?

 

[Nickwill]

Sorry for two posts in a row but i've just seen this stuff on the Millers Oil site while getting some info on diesel additives in response to another post, never heard of such a thing before.

http://www.millersoils.co.uk/pdf/datasheets/Diesel-Particulate-Filter-Cleaner--Regenerator.pdf

Does anyone with more knowledge than me think this could help? I have found Millers to be a very professional and competent outfit in the past.

 

[Guest]

Re the last para, how will any prospective owner know that the car has had intermediate oil changes. Ours was changed 2 weeks ago at 9000 miles/9 months but the oil change doesn't appear on the JLR online service record. Maybe it's late updating but also, maybe they are not recording it.

Got my test kit this morning and I'm going to send a first sample off next week, even though the car has only done 1500 miles since the oil change, partly for my own piece of mind that the dealer actually performed the claimed oil change (yes I am that distrustful)

Bought one of these to extract the oil via the dipstick tube, hopefully it will work https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251427922668
£6.99 delivered including 90cm of tubing

 

[Charly777]

Just out of interest, how much does a main dealer charge for an oil and filter change?

£407 includes pollen filter , screenwash https://www.landrover.co.uk/ownership/service-and-maintenance/book-service-online.html#!/

 

[Charly777]

Re the last para, how will any prospective owner know that the car has had intermediate oil changes. Ours was changed 2 weeks ago at 9000 miles/9 months but the oil change doesn't appear on the JLR online service record. Maybe it's late updating but also, maybe they are not recording it.

Got my test kit this morning and I'm going to send a first sample off next week, even though the car has only done 1500 miles since the oil change, partly for my own piece of mind that the dealer actually performed the claimed oil change (yes I am that distrustful)

Bought one of these to extract the oil via the dipstick tube, hopefully it will work https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251427922668
£6.99 delivered including 90cm of tubing

Same Kit i got yesterday off e Bay Cut the end at 45 degrees to ease access into dipstick hole

 

[Charly777]

Sorry for two posts in a row but i've just seen this stuff on the Millers Oil site while getting some info on diesel additives in response to another post, never heard of such a thing before.

http://www.millersoils.co.uk/pdf/datasheets/Diesel-Particulate-Filter-Cleaner--Regenerator.pdf

Does anyone with more knowledge than me think this could help? I have found Millers to be a very professional and competent outfit in the past.

I'm no expert Nick, but Ill be sending my oil sample next week. Given the problem which JLR are now faced with it would be sound advice and give you peace of mind especially if you intend keeping your Disco beyond warranty

 

[VeryDiscoSport]

Re the last para, how will any prospective owner know that the car has had intermediate oil changes.

Good question, Paul. Initially I asked CRC for written proof so I could build up a service record outside OSH. They referred me back to the dealer that did the warranty oil change. The dealer said they send all warranty work notifications back to JLR for collation with the vehicle history so I emailed Andrea Taylor to look into it again and that's where we are. Everybody who is getting an interim oil change should consider putting pressure on JLR until they do something about it. Maybe they'll change OSH to make it more flexible, but I doubt it.

Bought one of these to extract the oil via the dipstick tube, hopefully it will work https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251427922668
£6.99 delivered including 90cm of tubing

That big syringe looks great! Please let us all know if the pipe is long enough because I'm definitely up for one of those for next time!

 

[BobbyBox]

So why on earth won't JLR add the proper service menu items to pre MY17 vehicles like mine?
I'm referring to this menu item on MY17 vehicles:

Surely they could shuffle the DEF menu item (which is present on my vehicle) and make it a child menu of a new root menu item? Adding in the oil change menu item as a new child menu. The PCM has the data (it must do in order to run the algorithm) so why not display it?
Yes I know it's a new IC on MY17 vehicles with improved graphics etc. But surely it's a configurable software item on my IC ?
A £43k car and not even a spanner icon??? WTF!!!

I had expected the various software fixes relating to display of service messages to have addressed it, but no. Perhaps N025 does so?
BB

 

[jonet]

So looking at all the topix documentation that VDS uploaded (Thanks for that!) does that mean anyone who has ordered a MY18 or recent MY17 car with service plan, will have to pay for the oil services between the 2years/21,000 miles intervals. This would probably amount to around 5 extra oil services over the 5 years, not a very comprehensive service plan! Has anyone had this clarified by a dealer?

 

[VeryDiscoSport]

So looking at all the topix documentation that VDS uploaded (Thanks for that!) does that mean anyone who has ordered a MY18 or recent MY17 car with service plan, will have to pay for the oil services between the 2years/21,000 miles intervals. This would probably amount to around 5 extra oil services over the 5 years, not a very comprehensive service plan! Has anyone had this clarified by a dealer?

Also, for anyone who ends up having to pay (for whatever reason) for the oil change, when nothing else is required, there are two further issues to resolve:
* As currently implemented, OSH can only record the standard 21K/2 year, 42K/4 year..etc. services (this one is actually a problem for everyone who's affected);
* 2 out of 3 dealers I spoke to wouldn't discuss charging anything less than the full price for a standard service and are not prepared for "parting out" the oil, filter and 1 hour's labour.

Perhaps they are working on it. I guess the bottom line would be Halfords at £140 inc Vat - there'd be no fine espresso and biccies though....

 

[Barnsh]

So looking at all the topix documentation that VDS uploaded (Thanks for that!) does that mean anyone who has ordered a MY18 or recent MY17 car with service plan, will have to pay for the oil services between the 2years/21,000 miles intervals. This would probably amount to around 5 extra oil services over the 5 years, not a very comprehensive service plan! Has anyone had this clarified by a dealer?

Also, for anyone who ends up having to pay (for whatever reason) for the oil change, when nothing else is required, there are two further issues to resolve:
* As currently implemented, OSH can only record the standard 21K/2 year, 42K/4 year..etc. services (this one is actually a problem for everyone who's affected);
* 2 out of 3 dealers I spoke to wouldn't discuss charging anything less than the full price for a standard service and are not prepared for "parting out" the oil, filter and 1 hour's labour.

Perhaps they are working on it. I guess the bottom line would be Halfords at £140 inc Vat - there'd be no fine espresso and biccies though....

Not sure if it helps anyone, when I had warranty work for rattles on my first DS (b pillar diagnoses and a fix to the gutter rail) I asked for a paper copy of all work done and received this .
It stated the warranty work , bits used and time taken with a £0 bill and warranty written next to it. This was a main dealer , so they can do it if pushed.

It won't help if buying a second hand DS as I guess many won't ask for this..
And thinking further would it even help a second hand buyer if you tell them it needs extra oil changes and thus costs more to run. Damned if you do and damned if you don't scenario.

 

[Mamil]

There is already a way the dealer can add services that are outside the scheduled services to the OSH, and list what was included.

My vehicle being the 2.2 engine has scheduled services every 12 months, but I get an extra oil & filter change at 6 months. The dealer adds this to my OSH as you can see below. The phrase "arduous interim service" refers to the section in the handbook that says you might need to do more regular services if the vehicle is used in arduous conditions such as dusty environments, a lot of towing, or very hot or very cold climates etc.

It can't be that difficult to add the warranty/goodwill oil change in a similar way, but maybe call it something like "Interim service" or "Oil dilution service"

And like Barnsh, whenever I get anything else done at the dealer, like installing accessories or warranty items, I get a hard copy printout of what was done for my own records and in case I need it as evidence further down the line. I had to ask for this the first few times, but now they just automatically leave it on the passenger seat of the car when I collect it.

 

[Mamil]

And in case anyone's interested, here's an example of the printout I mentioned I get every time the dealer does anything. You can see "Job 1" was the same interim oil & filter change that appears in the OSH above, so there's another way of getting a record of interim oil changes.

The others were a combination of outstanding service campaigns and things I asked them to look at under warranty - including fixing the dreaded B-Pillar rattle in 'Job 5' :evil:

 

[Nickwill]

And in case anyone's interested, here's an example of the printout I mentioned I get every time the dealer does anything. You can see "Job 1" was the same interim oil & filter change that appears in the OSH above, so there's another way of getting a record of interim oil changes.

The others were a combination of outstanding service campaigns and things I asked them to look at under warranty - including fixing the dreaded B-Pillar rattle in 'Job 5' :evil:

Service log_20170731.jpg

So, if I am reading the invoice correctly, an oil and filter change would cost £125?