[Charly777]

Thanks guys for all the info on here ref: Service Interval. When my oil analysis is complete I suspect it will show around 6% + contamination as it has done 13,500 miles . Having read the excellent pdf file ( thank you for this) https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/download/file.php?id=5997 I wonder how I should proceed if no service required indication pops up anywhere? I had the software update done in April N010 so considering my mileage I would have thought an oil change due dilution would have shown up by now unless the contamination is actually low (2% or 3%) Hopefully if it shows 6% + dilution they will acknowledge this and change the oil to prevent engine damage ?

 

[Dashnine]

So has anyone who has N020 against their car in ToPix (i.e. vehicles with oil dilution at 6% or greater), had a letter yet?

 

[VeryDiscoSport]

Thanks guys for all the info on here ref: Service Interval. When my oil analysis is complete I suspect it will show around 6% + contamination as it has done 13,500 miles . Having read the excellent pdf file ( thank you for this) https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/download/file.php?id=5997 I wonder how I should proceed if no service required indication pops up anywhere? I had the software update done in April N010 so considering my mileage I would have thought an oil change due dilution would have shown up by now unless the contamination is actually low (2% or 3%) Hopefully if it shows 6% + dilution they will acknowledge this and change the oil to prevent engine damage ?

From the start it seemed obvious to ask, "Just how good a guide is the SIM even if it's installed and working properly, when there are so many influential voices saying publicly that 2% diesel dilution should never be exceeded?" So I ignored the car, ignored the dealer, initially ignored CRC and went straight to a laboratory without giving it a second thought. And I got the answer I feared - which was that the oil needed changing immediately and that wear metals were already present at high levels (Fe, Si and Cu) measured by parts per million (ppm).

I presented the new findings to JLR CRC with a letter explaining that my old car visited the garage once a year for a service and that a key part of my decision to replace it with a DS was that I was looking forward to halving the number of service visits. I reminded them that these cars should actually be "more affordable and convenient to own thanks to servicing intervals extended from 16,000 to 21,000 miles/two years" according to their own marketing material. Their response to my submission was to pay for the oil change, even though the service warning had not yet presented.

It appears that the SIM operates on an arbitrary, estimated oil dilution level. Where is the evidence that Ingenium has been tested thoroughly with high levels of diesel dilution without incurring damage? Nowhere. In fact, the reverse is acknowledged: "Continued vehicle operation with high oil dilution will result in engine failure." That statement pretty much seals it for me.

The best advice I can think of is to wait for your oil test results and proceed from there.

 

[Charly777]

Thanks, will keep you advised

 

[simon]

Thanks guys for all the info on here ref: Service Interval. When my oil analysis is complete I suspect it will show around 6% + contamination as it has done 13,500 miles . Having read the excellent pdf file ( thank you for this) https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/download/file.php?id=5997 I wonder how I should proceed if no service required indication pops up anywhere? I had the software update done in April N010 so considering my mileage I would have thought an oil change due dilution would have shown up by now unless the contamination is actually low (2% or 3%) Hopefully if it shows 6% + dilution they will acknowledge this and change the oil to prevent engine damage ?

This is my theory. Mine said I'd need a service in 3K miles when only having done approx 12.5K miles (though no service light had come on) when I checked pre holiday travel, so asked the dealer to look into it. They updated the IC software and as no service indicator has come on subsequently I assume I fall into the 'it's ok, wait for the service indicator' bracket. Mine now says Oil Service 10,950 miles. Car has done 14,590 miles.

 

[PhilMabbots17]

There's also a lot of pain being experienced in the Evoque world - but 9% !!!???

http://www.evoqueownersclub.co.uk/forum/early-service_topic12969_post155445.html#155445

http://www.evoqueownersclub.co.uk/forum/topic13104_post158166.html

http://www.evoqueownersclub.co.uk/forum/introduction-time_topic12880_post154249.html

etc., etc...

just found another load.

http://www.evoqueownersclub.co.uk/forum/high-dilution-oil-problem_topic12358_post148121.html#148121

 

[0ldlandyman]

For interest and hopefully as a positive contribution to this debate, the following is an extract from a technical bulletin from Cummins, one of the largest diesel engine manufacturers in the world;

Cummins Engines' guidance for oil dilution, is for a maximum of 5% fuel in lubricating oil.

The "Oil Change Required" message displayed on the EVIC is sent over the vehicle BUS system from the ECM. The message is requested when the ECM calculates there is excessive (above 5%) fuel in the engine oil dilution. This calculation is derived from engine idle time and the amount of time the engine is performing an 'active' exhaust regeneration. During these operating conditions, a small amount of fuel will get into the engine oil. This is normal operation of the engine.

Frequent short-trip operation of the engine will result in many incomplete regeneration processes (and relatively high fuel dilution in the engine oil).

The way Cummins calculate the need for a service may be similar to that used by JLR for their Ingenium engines?

 

[henryhorse]

Just to add at 9,000 miles have had a service required countdown message appear. Dealer has advised that there is a known problem with 16/17MY vehicles requiring an oil and filter change earlier than the first service interval and this will be provided under warranty. At least while it's in DAB fix and AdBlue top up can be sorted at the same time.

Henry, you would be an ideal candidate to have laboratory oil analysis done now, in order to obtain another set of wear metal fugures and, equally importantly, an accurate dilution percentage in a car where the Service Message has just been triggered. Please consider doing this for your own benefit and then make the numbers available for others to see. I am going to start another thread just for posting analysis data, starting with a sample of brand new Castrol Edge Professional 0W-30 C2, then my own results. I'll post the link here.

My dealer was very quick and clear to confirm this is definitely a warranty issue. As mentioned by Paul it seems this should be known by all dealers. I have had Land Rovers for many years from different dealers and also have a close relative within JLR and it is clear the service you get from dealers varies greatly. If a dealer does not agree to resolve under warranty take it up straight away with the Customer Contact Centre at Whitley, keep everything in writing and be prepared to chase them frequently by phone for a prompt response!

 

[D3GGY]

Mine is in tomorrow and I will be raising this as an issue and I expect the interim changes upto the end of my high mileage service plan.

 

[VeryDiscoSport]

The more I think about this the closer I feel I am getting to rejecting the car as unfit and not conforming to the specification I was sold. I will be so sad when and if I decide to do it but looking at the whole thing dispassionately and pragmatically, I realised this evening that if I don't act now it could lead to years and years of frustrating down time, multiple additional oil services twice or three times a year plus perpetual nagging doubts about the state of the engine, not to mention a really poor second hand value. I don't want to live with that and I am not sure I would even want a petrol version either. Time to have a good long think.

 

[Barnsh]

Thanks guys for all the info on here ref: Service Interval. When my oil analysis is complete I suspect it will show around 6% + contamination as it has done 13,500 miles . Having read the excellent pdf file ( thank you for this) https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/download/file.php?id=5997 I wonder how I should proceed if no service required indication pops up anywhere? I had the software update done in April N010 so considering my mileage I would have thought an oil change due dilution would have shown up by now unless the contamination is actually low (2% or 3%) Hopefully if it shows 6% + dilution they will acknowledge this and change the oil to prevent engine damage ?

From the start it seemed obvious to ask, "Just how good a guide is the SIM even if it's installed and working properly, when there are so many influential voices saying publicly that 2% diesel dilution should never be exceeded?" So I ignored the car, ignored the dealer, initially ignored CRC and went straight to a laboratory without giving it a second thought. And I got the answer I feared - which was that the oil needed changing immediately and that wear metals were already present at high levels (Fe, Si and Cu) measured by parts per million (ppm).

I presented the new findings to JLR CRC with a letter explaining that my old car visited the garage once a year for a service and that a key part of my decision to replace it with a DS was that I was looking forward to halving the number of service visits. I reminded them that these cars should actually be "more affordable and convenient to own thanks to servicing intervals extended from 16,000 to 21,000 miles/two years" according to their own marketing material. Their response to my submission was to pay for the oil change, even though the service warning had not yet presented.

It appears that the SIM operates on an arbitrary, estimated oil dilution level. Where is the evidence that Ingenium has been tested thoroughly with high levels of diesel dilution without incurring damage? Nowhere. In fact, the reverse is acknowledged: "Continued vehicle operation with high oil dilution will result in engine failure." That statement pretty much seals it for me.

The best advice I can think of is to wait for your oil test results and proceed from there.

Worth reading the sources of copper , particularly with respect to new engines , copper normally drops off after a few oil changes .
I never run a diesel over 10k without an oil change.
A good site for oil analysis...
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/646/copper-diesel-engine-oil

My old Volvo used to have the oil level reduced as there was so much diesel going into the sump, the Volvo recall was to change the fill level notch on the dip stick , and update software :shock: .
The recall was because several diesel cars ( also of various other makes and models) ran them selves to destruction due to engine runaway caused by fuel dilution, rising oil levels thus the engine runs itself on the oil.
A google of "diesel runaway +DPF + rising oil levels " is interesting too , including a Mazda with 64% dilution!

 

[arbeetee]

That's a very interesting read regarding rising oil levels. It made me check my DS and this is what my dipstick look like (engine is cold and had an oil change about 2 months ago):

If the oil is contaminated with diesel, will taking the car on long journeys decrease the diesel content or is changing oil the only option at this point? I havent recieved any service warning in the dash though.

 

[PedroT]

If your oil is contaminated by diesel, the only solution is to change the oil.

 

[PaulTheWall]

Driving style issue isn't really a correct description... it's more the DS it isn't compatible with the way you use your vehicle ... maybe some indication on the dash that regeneration is due or active then the more concerned drivers can drive accordingly.... going on an extended drive or unnecessary burn down the motorway isn't really goingto help emissions though.

 

[Mamil]

That's a very interesting read regarding rising oil levels. It made me check my DS and this is what my dipstick look like (engine is cold and had an oil change about 2 months ago):

IMG_3352.JPG

If the oil is contaminated with diesel, will taking the car on long journeys decrease the diesel content or is changing oil the only option at this point? I havent recieved any service warning in the dash though.

The fuel dilution issues are with the Ingenium engine (as confirmed by LR in the service message to their dealers copied above) and as you have the Ford/PSA engine I wouldn't worry.

It was probably just overfilled by the dealer - the same happened to me at the last service.

If you want to make sure, just keep an eye on the level and if it doesn't go up over time you're OK.

 

[VeryDiscoSport]

Driving style issue isn't really a correct description... it's more the DS it isn't compatible with the way you use your vehicle

... and the incompatibility, according to one service technician, is mostly the car's fault, not yours.

The entire DPF regeneration system of Ingenium was designed and optimised for the geometry of the XE / XF range where the power unit was mounted in-line. By installing the engine transversely, as in the 4x4s, the temperature and gas flow calculations were no longer valid hence the need for, as the SCN candidly admits, extended regeneration cycles involving increased post-injection of diesel. This begins to look more and more like a quick, crude workaround, precisely the sort of thing that auto manufacturers like to cover up with "secret warranties". (That's a new phrase I learned yesterday, isn't it amazing what you can learn with the internet...e.g. "Service Compliance Notification" is often used as a euphemism for "Secret Warranty")

Anyway, to say it is down to "driving style" is really a bit misleading, to say the least. The transverse mounting also accounts, according to this techie, for a host of other problems including the wiring problems caused by chafing.

 

[VeryDiscoSport]

Many thanks to the forum moderators for making the "INGENIUM 2.0 DIESEL OIL ANALYSIS RESULTS" thread sticky so it now comes up first in the "Engine & Drivetrain" menu.

https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=6132

 

[D3GGY]

So I have had my oil and filter changed today and from the sound of the engine I think the oil they took out was diluted. The engine sounds much sweeter now.

I fully expect to be having free oil changes in between my service intervals now for the remainder of the car ownership.

 

[Barnsh]

Driving style issue isn't really a correct description... it's more the DS it isn't compatible with the way you use your vehicle ... maybe some indication on the dash that regeneration is due or active then the more concerned drivers can drive accordingly.... going on an extended drive or unnecessary burn down the motorway isn't really goingto help emissions though.

Agree, The warning that is definitely missing is the "regen is currently action" light. At least gives us a choice to go for a blast before shutting down only for diesil to enter the sump each time it is interrupted.

 

[Barnsh]

Many thanks to the forum moderators for making the "INGENIUM 2.0 DIESEL OIL ANALYSIS RESULTS" thread sticky so it now comes up first in the "Engine & Drivetrain" menu.

https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=6132

The question for JLR is why do they have a FOI figure of 7% , against the lower figure provided by oil analysis.

Another note to question is why isn't the oil level rising nowadays if diesil is being fed back to the sump. I think the answer here is possibly the fact the JLR SCR system does low temp burns frequently in between the full 800 degree clean out.
Diesils of old just did the full 800 degree clean out, so every time that was interrupted diesil flowed to sump. So modern is better, but as we see not perfect.