P0716-64 Turbine/input shaft speed sensor A-circuit range/performance

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EVAUTOS
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Re: P0716-64 Turbine/input shaft speed sensor A-circuit range/performance

Post by EVAUTOS » Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:36 pm

The problem with this ZF 9 speed box is the two dog clutches that they used to enable better fuel economy from less drag caused by friction type clutches, which it appears they may be replacing one of the dog clutches with. The trouble is that the gearbox ecu has to monitor the position of the dog clutches so that they can be engaged correctly, from what I understand. With a friction clutch it doesn't need to know the position.
I totally agree with it being a design fault, but there doesn't seem to be any more that JLR can do about it apart from replace all the gearboxes with the new design when they do change it.
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Re: P0716-64 Turbine/input shaft speed sensor A-circuit range/performance

Post by Dashnine » Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:51 pm

Where did you hear / see the gearbox is being updated?

The dog clutches are used for up changes 4-5 and 7-8 and the same downwards. Therefore any slow start or take off in other gears isn’t related to the dog clutches.

I find slow starts or take offs are usually related to injudicious use of full throttle. Good old dumb torque converter gearbox’s just spin the fluid until the car picks up, modern ones work out what gear it thinks the driver wants first. Don’t floor it and it stays in gear and goes just fine.

Unfortunately it’s all about the great gods of fuel economy and emissions, which is why modern autos achieve much nearer to or better fuel economy than the equivalent manual gearbox equipped car.
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Re: P0716-64 Turbine/input shaft speed sensor A-circuit range/performance

Post by Woolmeister » Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:57 pm

Did somebody say "gearbox"? 8-)

There's no way you should have lost £16,500 on your car, EVAUTOS, unless you'd done a load of miles in it? That doesn't sound right at all.

I'm pretty sure the gearbox should never engage P if the wheels are still moving. It makes a hell of a clunk sometimes and I'm pretty sure the lump of metal that locks the gearbox in P is going to break off any day now.
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Re: P0716-64 Turbine/input shaft speed sensor A-circuit range/performance

Post by green genie » Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:17 pm

I have always regarded the occasional delay when accelerating from a stand still as "Turbo Lag" ie it takes a very brief time for the turbo to spin up and provide pressure at the engine inlet, the natural reaction is to step even harder on the throttle when the cars reaction appears to be slow, It then effectively overreacts, which is partly the reason for the car "taking off like scalded cat"as soon as this pressure arrives. I actually back off the throttle a very small amount in anticipation and progress is then better and smooth. I understand why unless a person is fairly knowledgable on the cars mechanical side the diagnosis can be incorrect, and that in a perfect world L.R. should have sorted this, but they haven"t!
So give this a try, it works for me, but I"m from an age when cars had to be driven, and not just steered.
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Re: P0716-64 Turbine/input shaft speed sensor A-circuit range/performance

Post by EVAUTOS » Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:44 pm

Dashnine wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:51 pm
Where did you hear / see the gearbox is being updated?

The dog clutches are used for up changes 4-5 and 7-8 and the same downwards. Therefore any slow start or take off in other gears isn’t related to the dog clutches.

I find slow starts or take offs are usually related to injudicious use of full throttle. Good old dumb torque converter gearbox’s just spin the fluid until the car picks up, modern ones work out what gear it thinks the driver wants first. Don’t floor it and it stays in gear and goes just fine.

Unfortunately it’s all about the great gods of fuel economy and emissions, which is why modern autos achieve much nearer to or better fuel economy than the equivalent manual gearbox equipped car.
Hello Dashnine,
I read here about the gearbox possibly being re designed https://www.allpar.com/forums/threads/9 ... nt.168628/

We have tried not accelerating so hard and various other speeds of pushing the accelerator down, with no improvement.
We had done approximately 38000 miles when they had it back a couple of days ago.
We actually went to Audi to get a price on a new Q5 and they only listed it at 22500. The online valuation from JLR was 24550 in showroom condition.
I am in the automotive trade too and am an IMI Advanced Automotive Engineer and Master Technician. Although I don't claim to know much about automatic transmissions, I have a fairly deep understanding of todays technology used in cars.
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Re: P0716-64 Turbine/input shaft speed sensor A-circuit range/performance

Post by EVAUTOS » Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:59 pm

green genie wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:17 pm
I have always regarded the occasional delay when accelerating from a stand still as "Turbo Lag" ie it takes a very brief time for the turbo to spin up and provide pressure at the engine inlet, the natural reaction is to step even harder on the throttle when the cars reaction appears to be slow, It then effectively overreacts, which is partly the reason for the car "taking off like scalded cat"as soon as this pressure arrives. I actually back off the throttle a very small amount in anticipation and progress is then better and smooth. I understand why unless a person is fairly knowledgable on the cars mechanical side the diagnosis can be incorrect, and that in a perfect world L.R. should have sorted this, but they haven"t!
So give this a try, it works for me, but I"m from an age when cars had to be driven, and not just steered.
Hello Green Genie,
The Discovery Sport uses a variable vane turbo (as most engines do now) which doesn't give any "turbo lag" as the boost from the turbo is linear. I think the feeling of turbo lag is the engine control unit reducing power to put less strain on the autobox (in my opinion, but i'm probably wrong).
My wife says that she has tried not depressing the accelerator as quick/much and so have I on the odd occasion I have been driving it, and it made absolutely no difference. I have spoken to one of ZF's main uk trainers on several occasions at various events that I have attended and he has previously told me that the new autoboxes can change gear much faster than is humanly possible, but with this box it seems that it just isn't correct. I also have a friend that goes around the world training technicians for JLR and he is well aware of the ongoing issues with this ZF 9 speed box .
I am also of an age "where cars had to be driven" and am quite capable of driving a vehicle to get the best out of it.
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Re: P0716-64 Turbine/input shaft speed sensor A-circuit range/performance

Post by Dashnine » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:13 pm

EVAUTOS wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:44 pm
Dashnine wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:51 pm
Where did you hear / see the gearbox is being updated?

The dog clutches are used for up changes 4-5 and 7-8 and the same downwards. Therefore any slow start or take off in other gears isn’t related to the dog clutches.

I find slow starts or take offs are usually related to injudicious use of full throttle. Good old dumb torque converter gearbox’s just spin the fluid until the car picks up, modern ones work out what gear it thinks the driver wants first. Don’t floor it and it stays in gear and goes just fine.

Unfortunately it’s all about the great gods of fuel economy and emissions, which is why modern autos achieve much nearer to or better fuel economy than the equivalent manual gearbox equipped car.
Hello Dashnine,
I read here about the gearbox possibly being re designed https://www.allpar.com/forums/threads/9 ... nt.168628/

We have tried not accelerating so hard and various other speeds of pushing the accelerator down, with no improvement.
We had done approximately 38000 miles when they had it back a couple of days ago.
We actually went to Audi to get a price on a new Q5 and they only listed it at 22500. The online valuation from JLR was 24550 in showroom condition.
I am in the automotive trade too and am an IMI Advanced Automotive Engineer and Master Technician. Although I don't claim to know much about automatic transmissions, I have a fairly deep understanding of todays technology used in cars.
It appears that FCA use a licensed or some other version of the ZF9, and this is a patent by FCA to remove a dog clutch from their version. Or so it reads.

I'm just hoping the gearbox in my new DS due in January is a good as the one I have now, or that I can 'train' it to be so!
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Re: P0716-64 Turbine/input shaft speed sensor A-circuit range/performance

Post by green genie » Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:49 am

As I stated above , "Slight easing of the throttle works for me,"
I was aware of the variable vane turbo, but because the written word states something that does not necessarily mean that it is so.
Keep an open mind.

.P.S. When did you last "double declutch" its second nature to me in both of the Classic cars that I drive.
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