JLR investors day presentation

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Ian_S
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Re: JLR investors day presentation

Post by Ian_S » Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:14 am

Still doesn't answer the question though of how come an old (albeit modified) Ford unit can fit in the same engine bay with a DPF, but a new, smaller displacement unit cannot? And why not keep the DPF closely coupled and deal with the rest under the vehicle?
MY2016 HSE TD4 180


Barnsh
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Re: JLR investors day presentation

Post by Barnsh » Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:00 am

Ian_S wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:14 am
Still doesn't answer the question though of how come an old (albeit modified) Ford unit can fit in the same engine bay with a DPF, but a new, smaller displacement unit cannot? And why not keep the DPF closely coupled and deal with the rest under the vehicle?
The 2.2 didn’t meet the same emissions standards as the ingenium .
The 2.2 had no SCRF it just had DPF ( no adblu )

Whilst the engine may have fitted in the same space , the new system either didn’t fit or it was found to be non compliant.
This explains the increase in adblu from MY2016 to MY2017 models ( it was doubled )
I queried why I only had 9000 miles worth of adblu on the MY17 when I collected it having just handed back an MY16 which had 13000 miles for adblu (when full) .
So who decided to double the adblu if it wasn’t an engineering design fault? Remember all vehicles had to meet new EU limits at a specific date afterwards, this they issue EU6b , c etc . Manufacturers are given leeway to introduce a vehicle and it must comply within a certain time frame, that’s all explained in the EU standards.

My dealer told me the following when I asked “ well you heard about VW ...JLR are just making sure they don’t get caught in the same way” A pretty surprising statement from servicing not sales.

Plus if you increase adblue without making other changes to the SCRF it is a recipe for clogged DEF injectors and pipes.There are limits to the amount of DEF you can chuck in an SCRF system without creating additional problems , it would apoear JLR have stumbled in to this area and are happy vehicles now comply, but at the expense of faults experienced by the customer.

Plus no faults on the FPace or Velar or D5 with 2L ingenium all in-line engines with close coupled systems. So it’s not the engine that’s for sure . It can only be the design of the emmisions system on affected vehicles . Note the new EPace built on the same D8 platform is having the same problems with oil dilution and DPF .
My18 FPace, BRG, R Sport, Auto. 18 way mem Seats, ActiveLED, PrivGlass, ICTP, blis, cooled gloves, spare.
MY17 HSE 180 gone
My16.5 DS 180 b pillar tick ~ rejected :oops:
My16 DS 180 ~ rejected :oops:


Badgerface
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Re: JLR investors day presentation

Post by Badgerface » Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:05 am

Barnsh wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:00 am
Plus if you increase adblue without making other changes to the SCRF it is a recipe for clogged DEF injectors and pipes.There are limits to the amount of DEF you can chuck in an SCRF system without creating additional problems , it would apoear JLR have stumbled in to this area and are happy vehicles now comply, but at the expense of faults experienced by the customer.
Correct.

A JLR technician from Gaydon (not AA) has just left my house after 2+ hours, and has confirmed that the DEF has reacted with the heated pipes and injector, thus fouling it. He has purged it, and fitted a new injector, pressure tested it and all is now well.
At full 13l refill, the counter now reads 5789 miles. So half what an MY16 would have said when full.
MY17 HSE Luxury TD4 Ingenium 180ps - Aintree Green with Black Pack/ICTP/825w Meridian
MY13 HSE Luxury FL2 2.2 SD4 190ps - Baltic Blue with NO Oil dilution issues whatsoever!
MY12 HSE FL2. 2.2 SD4 190ps - Sumatra Black - Gone


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Re: JLR investors day presentation

Post by NoDiscoSport » Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:39 am

Badgerface wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:05 am
Barnsh wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:00 am
Plus if you increase adblue without making other changes to the SCRF it is a recipe for clogged DEF injectors and pipes.There are limits to the amount of DEF you can chuck in an SCRF system without creating additional problems , it would apoear JLR have stumbled in to this area and are happy vehicles now comply, but at the expense of faults experienced by the customer.
Correct.

A JLR technician from Gaydon (not AA) has just left my house after 2+ hours, and has confirmed that the DEF has reacted with the heated pipes and injector, thus fouling it. He has purged it, and fitted a new injector, pressure tested it and all is now well.
At full 13l refill, the counter now reads 5789 miles. So half what an MY16 would have said when full.
I seem to remember that there have been several reports of problems around the DEF injection area caused by too much heat. Presumably any additional lagging to help with the passive regeneration issue would expose this area to an even greater risk of damage to the injector and its wiring etc. Search on "DEF injector" gets 42 results but haven't been through them.

Have now. Several melted injectors and wires "broken"
17MY DS150PS 6 speed manual. Gone. Not of satisfactory quality. Not as described.


Barnsh
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Re: JLR investors day presentation

Post by Barnsh » Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:57 am

NoDiscoSport wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:39 am
Badgerface wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:05 am
Barnsh wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:00 am
Plus if you increase adblue without making other changes to the SCRF it is a recipe for clogged DEF injectors and pipes.There are limits to the amount of DEF you can chuck in an SCRF system without creating additional problems , it would apoear JLR have stumbled in to this area and are happy vehicles now comply, but at the expense of faults experienced by the customer.
Correct.

A JLR technician from Gaydon (not AA) has just left my house after 2+ hours, and has confirmed that the DEF has reacted with the heated pipes and injector, thus fouling it. He has purged it, and fitted a new injector, pressure tested it and all is now well.
At full 13l refill, the counter now reads 5789 miles. So half what an MY16 would have said when full.
I seem to remember that there have been several reports of problems around the DEF injection area caused by too much heat. Presumably any additional lagging to help with the passive regeneration issue would expose this area to an even greater risk of damage to the injector and its wiring etc. Search on "DEF injector" gets 42 results but haven't been through them.

Have now. Several melted injectors and wires "broken"
Too much def , crystallisation of injectors , also common on hgv.
Def pump on shut down is supposed to suck it back up the pipe to the tank , gunk in pipe is sucking shit back too in amongst the DEF , pipe gets blocked ......vicious circle that won’t go away .
My18 FPace, BRG, R Sport, Auto. 18 way mem Seats, ActiveLED, PrivGlass, ICTP, blis, cooled gloves, spare.
MY17 HSE 180 gone
My16.5 DS 180 b pillar tick ~ rejected :oops:
My16 DS 180 ~ rejected :oops:


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Re: JLR investors day presentation

Post by Badgerface » Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:59 pm

Could be cured with a simple filter at the pump of course, which would cost pence. But it would probably mean "less reduction, minimalism" etc etc, and fly in the face of the designers ethos!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
MY17 HSE Luxury TD4 Ingenium 180ps - Aintree Green with Black Pack/ICTP/825w Meridian
MY13 HSE Luxury FL2 2.2 SD4 190ps - Baltic Blue with NO Oil dilution issues whatsoever!
MY12 HSE FL2. 2.2 SD4 190ps - Sumatra Black - Gone


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Ian_S
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Re: JLR investors day presentation

Post by Ian_S » Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:25 pm

Barnsh wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:00 am
The 2.2 didn’t meet the same emissions standards as the ingenium .
The 2.2 had no SCRF it just had DPF ( no adblu )

Whilst the engine may have fitted in the same space , the new system either didn’t fit or it was found to be non compliant.
This explains the increase in adblu from MY2016 to MY2017 models ( it was doubled )
I guess it'a all assumption on our part. For example, does the NOx removal have to happen before the DPF? Can it happen after? Is a combined DPF?Adblue system preferred becuase it's cheaper than two indpenedent ones?
MY2016 HSE TD4 180


Barnsh
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Re: JLR investors day presentation

Post by Barnsh » Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:59 pm

No no no it’s him

F4BAD3AD-FE59-4903-AFB7-A9277F6ACA4C.png

My18 FPace, BRG, R Sport, Auto. 18 way mem Seats, ActiveLED, PrivGlass, ICTP, blis, cooled gloves, spare.
MY17 HSE 180 gone
My16.5 DS 180 b pillar tick ~ rejected :oops:
My16 DS 180 ~ rejected :oops:


Barnsh
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Re: JLR investors day presentation

Post by Barnsh » Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:04 pm

Ian_S wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:25 pm
Barnsh wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:00 am
The 2.2 didn’t meet the same emissions standards as the ingenium .
The 2.2 had no SCRF it just had DPF ( no adblu )

Whilst the engine may have fitted in the same space , the new system either didn’t fit or it was found to be non compliant.
This explains the increase in adblu from MY2016 to MY2017 models ( it was doubled )
I guess it'a all assumption on our part. For example, does the NOx removal have to happen before the DPF? Can it happen after? Is a combined DPF?Adblue system preferred becuase it's cheaper than two indpenedent ones?
Nox removal requires heat too for the chemical reaction inside the DPF , it’s always injected just upstream it vaporises at a specific temperature.
It’s a 3 way trade off between gas flow ( exhaust) heat and amount of DEF injected.
So increasing DEF and not changing heat or gas flow was always going to be a blunder.
The SCR catalyser is inside the SCRF ( DPF) box.

Edit , yes you could add another box after , but thats a cost issue , it’s cheaper to put all three items in one box , the DOC which is responsible for most passive ( if it works ) is hard up to the turbo.
An ever newer design incorporates the DOC and SCRF in one box closer to the engine , the DS lacks the space for this version.
My18 FPace, BRG, R Sport, Auto. 18 way mem Seats, ActiveLED, PrivGlass, ICTP, blis, cooled gloves, spare.
MY17 HSE 180 gone
My16.5 DS 180 b pillar tick ~ rejected :oops:
My16 DS 180 ~ rejected :oops:


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Re: JLR investors day presentation

Post by Barnsh » Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:06 pm

Badgerface wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:59 pm
Could be cured with a simple filter at the pump of course, which would cost pence. But it would probably mean "less reduction, minimalism" etc etc, and fly in the face of the designers ethos!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Filter would get bunged up instead ...rock and a hard place.
My18 FPace, BRG, R Sport, Auto. 18 way mem Seats, ActiveLED, PrivGlass, ICTP, blis, cooled gloves, spare.
MY17 HSE 180 gone
My16.5 DS 180 b pillar tick ~ rejected :oops:
My16 DS 180 ~ rejected :oops:


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