"I-Pace Range sub-200 Miles" Top Gear

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Ian_S
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Re: "I-Pace Range sub-200 Miles" Top Gear

Post by Ian_S » Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:32 am

PhilMabbots17 wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:12 am
The comments are interesting. But the journey itself was a mess and demonstrates pretty conclusively that cars like this are only useful for home based journeys up to 100 miles and back, or 140 if you don't use any headlights, aircon or radio and drive permanently at 47 mph. Who needs a "luxury" car that lacks the primary "luxury" of actually getting anywhere useful at a decent speed?
That's not really anything to do with luxury though ;)

It's not the luxury that's the problem. if an EV fits your main journey style, then someone will always want a more luxurious option. Also, if you look at the 'budget' options then it does seem like the main cost would be the battery. Hyundai - 28kWH, Nissan 40kWH, and really low range for about £30k. Tesla, 75-100kWH and Jaguar 90 kWH for more range, but heavier more feature laden vehicles and a whopping jump in price. If you're paying the money that Jag/Tesla want, and you get a Nissan interior, they're not going to sell many. In the £70k+ car market, regardless of propulsion method you expect something nice inside.

No-one's going to buy a £50k bare bones, but big battery Dacia Duster equivalent. An EV at whatever price has to compete with other cars at it's price point, which is why the Hyundai's, Nissan's etc. are a tough sell at the low end, because they don't look like great value to start with. If the higher price you pay for en EV wipes out the fuel savings, and at the end of your three-five year use you've not made a big saving, why sacrfice the ease of use, etc. unless you are stubbornly principled :)

So that journey would have been significantly worse in a budget option with zero chance of actually making it there on effectively a single charge worth of battery, even if it was like the original trio's trip back from France in diesels some time back. In some ways that would be the better test. Just how awful would the family holiday trip to Cornwall with a fully laden affordable EV with kids be? Could you actually get there in a day? How many holiday homes could you really charge the car at once you arrived? How much normal driving around Cornwall could you do once there?
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PhilMabbots17
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Re: "I-Pace Range sub-200 Miles" Top Gear

Post by PhilMabbots17 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:22 am

Those specifications are not current. The new mail-order-only Hyundai has a sumptuous leather interior and comes fully equipped. But more importantly it has a 64 KWH battery which charges faster and gives it a longer range than the Jaguar (WLTP). When you put the two vehicles side by side it's quite difficult to see why one costs more than twice (and up to three times) as much as the other: Jaguar £64K to £82K - Hyundai £32K all in.

Perhaps it's the cost of all that Emperor-grade cloth...
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Ian_S
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Re: "I-Pace Range sub-200 Miles" Top Gear

Post by Ian_S » Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:58 am

We may have to agree to disagree on the deifinition of sumptuous. :D

It's certainly much better value than the Leaf etc. Not that it makes much difference, but the Hyundai price includes the grant, the Jaguar's doesn't.

If I had the money I'd take the Jaguar's looks, interior, size, and AWD all day long. I'd expect the Kia version of this car will look a bit better, I really don't like the Hyundai styling at all. And the why you'd choose the Jaguar over the Hyundai would be much the same as for convential fuel models IMO. Money is obviously a factor, but also why choose an F-Pace over a Tucson? Why a V8 over a diesel sipping 2.0L ?

Electric cars won't be a one motor size/power fits all. The Jaguar is 400 bhp vs 200 in the Kona. Maybe as the software advances in these things they'll get better at running in some kind of Eco mode to extend range. Also active regeneration will no doubt improve too.

An interesting test between a Tesla X and the Hyundai here...

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PhilMabbots17
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Re: "I-Pace Range sub-200 Miles" Top Gear

Post by PhilMabbots17 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:08 am

I didn't watch the whole hour but it looks like a very good video for anyone looking into the practicalities of operating an electric car over long distances. It appeared that in a TG-style "race against the clock" the Tesla X completed a course of just over 900 km slightly behind a car costing £40,000 less (UK prices). An example of the tortoise and the hare due in no small measure to the Kona's amazing electrical efficiency. On which subject: aren't Johnson Matthey making the batteries for Jaguar Land Rover - the same company that is believed to be behind the SCRF technology?
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Re: "I-Pace Range sub-200 Miles" Top Gear

Post by BFGDSMan » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:18 am

Lovely car though the i-pace is, sadly all this article has done is to prove that electric cars (in whatever form and with whatever nice things they come with) are not mature enough to be used regularly for lengthy journeys. Who in their right mind would drive at under 50mph all the way to Cornwall with no aircon/radio/phone charging etc etc?? I have nothing at all against adopting such technologies but test articles like this just undermine more than re-enforce the case for electric cars for the majority and just highlights the angst many adopters have about range and emergency charging in unknown places (can't just carry 5 litres of fuel in a Jerry can to get you somewhere safe).

As has been mentioned what happens if you were towing a caravan? I have seen many Dutch Tesla's with towbars and seen a couple towing caravans, bet they'll get more than the 15% drop off I get towing compared to solo (at UK speeds)!

A much truer test would have been to say go at 90% of the speed limit all the way, shadowed with an XF saloon in diesel and petrol format and shown what the fuel figures, cost and range would have been.
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Re: "I-Pace Range sub-200 Miles" Top Gear

Post by Ian_S » Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:50 am

Yes a far more interesting test would be the i-Pace vs the 300PS (Diesel) F-Pace for an August Bank Holiday long weekend to Cornwall. Leave London at 5pm Friday, and return at 5pm Monday evening.

Then see who enjoys the whole experience the most and has the most time at their destination, and the least time travelling. Make each car reasonably well loaded with people + luggage, and at the other end just a standard rental cottage with parking. Weekend should include 1 day trip.

I don't think the EV car will have much fun, but could be wrong. It would also be a good test because it's a busy period, and a busy route so you won't be the only EV at the various service stations. It's no good doing it on a quiet weekend in the middle of winter.

I wonder if the next generation of PHEV's will make more sense. If they could get EV only range to say 75 miles, with overnight recharge times, and decent regenertion/charging from the ICE, then you've potentially got the best of both worlds, even if ICE only might be a bit laboured. You'd put up with that if on those rare long journeys you got there in decent time and could splash and dash with fuel.
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Re: "I-Pace Range sub-200 Miles" Top Gear

Post by NoDiscoSport » Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:44 pm

Ian_S wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:50 am
I wonder if the next generation of PHEV's will make more sense. If they could get EV only range to say 75 miles, with overnight recharge times, and decent regenertion/charging from the ICE, then you've potentially got the best of both worlds, even if ICE only might be a bit laboured. You'd put up with that if on those rare long journeys you got there in decent time and could splash and dash with fuel.
Speaking as a hybrid owner enjoying 48-50 mpg from a 2.5 L petrol, my very economical car would be near perfect if it had just a 30 mile EV range like the Mitsubishi Outlander. I live 5 miles from shops and therefore spend a lot of time "nipping into town" for widgets, takeaways and haircuts and I see those journeys as perfectly-sized for leaving the ICE off. I suspect there's a big population of semi-rural owners with similar needs, I don't think it needs as much as 75 miles but I could be wrong. So how about petrol hybrid with a user specified 30, 60 or 90 mile EV option?
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Re: "I-Pace Range sub-200 Miles" Top Gear

Post by PhilMabbots17 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:19 pm

JLR hands over 10 free E-taxis to Munchen Taxi Centre. https://www.muscatdaily.com/Archive/Oma ... unich-5agx

Great PR or temporary insanity? To do the job of ONE existing Munich taxi will require the services of TWO electric Jaguars costing €77,850 each. “We will implement a schedule with five cars in service and the other five being charged“, said Gregor Beiner. That €156,000 would buy THREE Mercedes E-Class saloons which could all be out earning money 24/7 - versus one Ipace working and another on its regular "electric break". Maybe diesel is very expensive in Germany.

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Re: "I-Pace Range sub-200 Miles" Top Gear

Post by Chippy » Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:28 am

Absolutely ludicrous on behalf of both sides.
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Re: "I-Pace Range sub-200 Miles" Top Gear

Post by roydonaldson » Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:55 pm

Definitely can see lots of people having an interest in a Hybrid with a 50-100 mile style electric range. That type of range lets you go up to the shops / run the kids to school, go into town for some shopping and for a lot of people commuting in and out of work each day. In fact, once your office has some charging capability that you can trickle from, it would probably suit a lot of commuters. Only real problem with this is that you then have 2 drive trains in the car and therefore it will always be an additional cost to build these.

Full electric is definitely the way to go. Much less equipment in the car, far less to go wrong, much less maintenance overall. Main problem I see at the moment isn't the cars, it's more the charging infrastructure. I think just now if I drive to work, I drive past 5 petrol stations in under 6 miles. Now, if there were that many electric charge points and all of which were fast charging ie. >50% charger in <15minutes, In the TopGear example, they pulled up somewhere and there was 1 car blocking 2 charger points. Most petrol stations I go to have a minimum of 8, if not 12 or 16 pumps.

Over the air updates for cars are a great innovation. Look at the investigations that were done recently into the Tesla Model 3's where they were not stopping as fast as they should have been. Tesla investigated this and then deployed a OTA update to the whole Model 3 estate overnight ! Imagine on traditional cars, would they even have told you ? would it be done at your next service, how long would that take ?

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