Service interval

Engine, Exhaust, Drivetrain, ECU Faults and Fixes
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Dashnine
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Re: Service interval

Post by Dashnine » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:32 pm

PhilMabbots17 wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:32 pm
Dashnine wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:12 pm
“Engineering work” doesn’t necessarily mean on end user vehicles, could be rig / vehicle work within LR simulating oil dilution over high mileages.

It’s a new engine as we know, and we believe oil dilution has probably been known in LR for almost as long as it’s been in the cars. If we assume testing has been taking place since then, after several years there’s a point when positive test results could allow changes to the dilution thresholds.

Speculation, of course.....

Jaguar Land Rover Plc
Ingenium will also come to market as one of the most tested and proven Jaguar Land Rover engines ever. Before the first Ingenium engine is sold, it will have already undergone the equivalent of more than eight years of the toughest, most punishing testing that Jaguar Land Rover engineers could devise. These tests include a huge range of integrity and durability testing, including more than 72,000 hours of dyno testing and 2 million miles of real-world testing to ensure these engines deliver – and continue to deliver.
No need to waste any more engineering money when they had 500,000 eager owners to do it for them!

I think its more likely that they just looked at the total number of DPF, EGR, crankshaft, turbo charger, balancer shaft and whole engine failures that two years of completely unchecked dilution had produced (18% to 20% I think GLLR said)…. let their bean counters do the sums and then just chose the cheapest option. More speculation of course....
Feel free to trawl the forum for examples, but haven’t a lot of balance shaft failures been on newish cars, before oil dilution could strike? A lot of DPF failures were due to the faulty batch and EGR, crankshaft and turbo failures have hardly been rife either. And I think we’ve heard of one whole engine failure with 11.25 litres of fluid in the sump, the extra 5 litres was hardly likely to have been due to oil dilution alone.

Here I go again speculating, but I wouldn’t say there have been a lot of mechanical failures (yet) due to oil dilution, but by all means carry on LR bashing.
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PhilMabbots17
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Re: Service interval

Post by PhilMabbots17 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:08 pm

More details here from an EU monitoring organisation, nothing about this on DVSA. Discovery Sport

Search for recalls on any car (any product for that matter,,,) here - ec.europa.eu
To find these particular recalls enter Brand = Land Rover & Category = Motor Vehicles

With the EU spotlight focused at last on Ingenium emissions it will be interesting to see what else JLR is forced to admit that it lied about.
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Re: Service interval

Post by TeddyBear » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:23 am

If we assume testing has been taking place since then, after several years there’s a point when positive test results could allow changes to the dilution thresholds.

Bone.GIF



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Re: Service interval

Post by Barnsh » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:33 am

TeddyBear wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:23 am
If we assume testing has been taking place since then, after several years there’s a point when positive test results could allow changes to the dilution thresholds.
Bone.GIF
Can just imagine the meeting .....
Increase acceptable dilution to 10%
See how owners cars fair with that
Too many blown engines we can reduce to 8%
Calculated company oil saving is £xxxxxx.

👍

Simple solution would be:
Leave at 6%
Swallow pride , revert to annual servicing in all sales bumph.
Sell a five year plan, with annual service/ every 10,000 miles
Happy customers
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Re: Service interval

Post by PhilMabbots17 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:32 am

I don't think that they ever had anywhere near enough budget to deal honestly and professionally with this. Once the fateful decision had been made in 2015 to go to market with a car that they knew needed three times as much servicing (due to three times as much post injection) as the brochures and other marketing materials stated, the die was cast. JLR's abyssmal performance from that point on betrays a sequence of short-term decisions, each one designed with three objectives in mind: 1) admit nothing and keep covered all prior nefarious activity, 2) modify the deception as necessary to fool as many people as possible for the longest period of time, and 3) always choose the lowest cost option consistent with objectives 1) and 2).

The evidence for this is all available on these pages and it is contained in JLR's own statements. To prove it, just ask your dealer this:
This begs the obvious question: was this vehicle faulty all along? If not, then why on earth have you modified the software - without my permission - with something that, according to JLR itself, will now expose it to the risk of serious damage less than a year before the end of the manufacturers warranty.

Kindly explain your actions
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Re: Service interval

Post by Ian_S » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:23 am

To be honest I don't see any point asking your dealer about this, it's neither their fault, or within their power to answer it.

We will never get JLR to admit in writing something that will legally put them in an awkward position. We know most of it.

The only thing in my mind that doesn't stack up is how JLR engineering could come up with a solution that got as far as making production that didn't work. I'm sure they are not that bad.

The more likely reason it doesn't work is because thanks to VW/Bosch, the system they had designed and tested could not be used in its intended form, and suddenly they had to use the ECU operating without any cheats going on. This is kind of verified by the DS actually coming out as meeting emission targets in independent testing.

The real blame here lies with VW/Bosch. Personally I think JLR should sue them to recover the costs and if they wanted to make us happy, also the cost of properly fixing it. But that's unlikely to happen.

There's still time for JLR to drop service schedules to something more reasonable, and also publish testing results to back that up, in terms of oil dilution % vs. engine wear, which would be the open and honest thing to do. They could also be honest, and if legally can get away with it make it clear where the blame lies, and encourage people to consider that when making their next purchase. I don't see why they should play nice here, VW haven't. Might even boost their sales in the UK and non-German countries.
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Re: Service interval

Post by Robsters » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:14 am

Ian_S wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:23 am
To be honest I don't see any point asking your dealer about this, it's neither their fault, or within their power to answer it.

We will never get JLR to admit in writing something that will legally put them in an awkward position. We know most of it.

The only thing in my mind that doesn't stack up is how JLR engineering could come up with a solution that got as far as making production that didn't work. I'm sure they are not that bad.

The more likely reason it doesn't work is because thanks to VW/Bosch, the system they had designed and tested could not be used in its intended form, and suddenly they had to use the ECU operating without any cheats going on. This is kind of verified by the DS actually coming out as meeting emission targets in independent testing.

The real blame here lies with VW/Bosch. Personally I think JLR should sue them to recover the costs and if they wanted to make us happy, also the cost of properly fixing it. But that's unlikely to happen.

There's still time for JLR to drop service schedules to something more reasonable, and also publish testing results to back that up, in terms of oil dilution % vs. engine wear, which would be the open and honest thing to do. They could also be honest, and if legally can get away with it make it clear where the blame lies, and encourage people to consider that when making their next purchase. I don't see why they should play nice here, VW haven't. Might even boost their sales in the UK and non-German countries.
Well said and good point, VW got away with it far to easy, diesel is a dying breed as become impossible to meet ever more stringent targets. Petrol / hybrid all the way going forward for new cars, honesty is best policy JLR!
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Re: Service interval

Post by moog23 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:03 am

Have been following thread for a while
Have an early model 2.0 diesel delivered sept 2015
Have changed oil regularly (at least every year)
This time decided to change oil at 6mths approx 6k miles myself .
Day after oil change service notification light came on 1700 miles to service, remote app also showing service due. Interestingly service due range increased over next few days to 1800 miles and now gone, service notification in app also gone.
Has the service due reset itself.
???


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Re: Service interval

Post by Dashnine » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:00 pm

Ian_S wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:23 am
To be honest I don't see any point asking your dealer about this, it's neither their fault, or within their power to answer it.

We will never get JLR to admit in writing something that will legally put them in an awkward position. We know most of it.

The only thing in my mind that doesn't stack up is how JLR engineering could come up with a solution that got as far as making production that didn't work. I'm sure they are not that bad.

The more likely reason it doesn't work is because thanks to VW/Bosch, the system they had designed and tested could not be used in its intended form, and suddenly they had to use the ECU operating without any cheats going on. This is kind of verified by the DS actually coming out as meeting emission targets in independent testing.

The real blame here lies with VW/Bosch. Personally I think JLR should sue them to recover the costs and if they wanted to make us happy, also the cost of properly fixing it. But that's unlikely to happen.

There's still time for JLR to drop service schedules to something more reasonable, and also publish testing results to back that up, in terms of oil dilution % vs. engine wear, which would be the open and honest thing to do. They could also be honest, and if legally can get away with it make it clear where the blame lies, and encourage people to consider that when making their next purchase. I don't see why they should play nice here, VW haven't. Might even boost their sales in the UK and non-German countries.
There may be the odd libellous phrase in the ‘speculation’ above - be careful, use questions rather than statements.... it’s not just you, it’s the forum owner and possibly mods as well who’d be held responsible.

I can’t imagine JLR would want their moment of glory in court over such a topic, but lawyers are lawyers!
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Re: Service interval

Post by PhilMabbots17 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:44 pm

Ian_S wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:23 am
To be honest I don't see any point asking your dealer about this, it's neither their fault, or within their power to answer it.

We will never get JLR to admit in writing something that will legally put them in an awkward position. We know most of it.

The only thing in my mind that doesn't stack up is how JLR engineering could come up with a solution that got as far as making production that didn't work. I'm sure they are not that bad.

The more likely reason it doesn't work is because thanks to VW/Bosch, the system they had designed and tested could not be used in its intended form, and suddenly they had to use the ECU operating without any cheats going on. This is kind of verified by the DS actually coming out as meeting emission targets in independent testing.

The real blame here lies with VW/Bosch. Personally I think JLR should sue them to recover the costs and if they wanted to make us happy, also the cost of properly fixing it. But that's unlikely to happen.

There's still time for JLR to drop service schedules to something more reasonable, and also publish testing results to back that up, in terms of oil dilution % vs. engine wear, which would be the open and honest thing to do. They could also be honest, and if legally can get away with it make it clear where the blame lies, and encourage people to consider that when making their next purchase. I don't see why they should play nice here, VW haven't. Might even boost their sales in the UK and non-German countries.
But while there's no evidence that JLR have done any actual testing - and every likelihood that they haven't, based on the way they have behaved in relation to other espects of this saga - I would be horrified, given what it says in JLRP00100 at the prospect of having my car exposed to the possibility of severe damage caused by undetected high oil dilution. This risk only arising because they had tinkered with a vital warning system that according to JLRP00100 was put there in the first place precisely for this reason. My contract was with the dealer, not JLR. If I still had one of these I would want them to tell me in writing what was going on. If that letter didn't produce a credible and acceptable explanation then I would at least know what I had to do when something went wrong.

I think that you could be right about the decision to disable any "cheat software" being the cause of the original dilution problem. That became very likely once it was established that an EU6 -compliant XE/XF style DPF either wouldn't fit in or, more likely, just about fitted in but was so close to the bulkhead that it created an enormous fire risk (remembering that it has to be heated to 600 deg C). But blaming VW for something that JLR decided to do? That is ridiculous. It's like Ronnie Biggs suing Bruce Reynolds for making him take part in the Great Train Robbery. "Sir, sir! The big boy made me do it...". You were, of course, joking?

JLR is in an awkward position with this and the organisation as a whole looks ridiculous. But it doesn't know that because plc's aren't conscious and therefore can't be reflective or feel embarrasment or remorse. All that exists are the people in different departments with their different functions. I think the reason that we have been told about 10% diesel dilution is the same reason that JLRP00100 was written and immediately leaked and the same reason why we learned about there being no passive regeneration, the same reason we found out in the first place about SCRF (not DPF), the same reason that we found out about heat, etc, etc. The record shows that in each case the information originated with engineers. I think this is no mere coincidence. I believe that they wanted their customers to know the truth about what was really going on and that they used whatever channel was available, passing the information out via their own people, usually without the mule being aware.

If you look at this from each department's standpoint in turn: Sales, Marketing, PR, Engineering, Customer Service, etc, then the picture that emerges is that each department has done its job professionally and to the best of its ability in extremely difficult circumstances. But this set of circumstances didn't just get dropped on the company, they were deliberately and knowingly created by the executive management's initial decision to sell the car knowing that it didn't do what it said on the tin. Same with CO2 emissions, this would have been another conscious decision signed off at the highest level.

Research has shown that the executives who create the "personality" of any large cororation often exhibit personality disorders that present with the symptoms of psychopathy. And frequently, organisations that experience "a flash in the pan" before floundering financially do so because the board of directors has failed to keep such mania in check.

We could bear this in mind as the next few months unfold.
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