Service interval

Engine, Exhaust, Drivetrain, ECU Faults and Fixes
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PhilMabbots17
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Re: Oil dilution - advice please

Post by PhilMabbots17 » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:32 am

snoopyhaynes wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:55 am
Thanks for the message. I’m not that concerned over the extra oil changes, its counter intuitive for me to only change the oil in a car every 20k anyway and I’ve never had a car that made it full term on services, always 75%ish due to me doing a lot of short journeys.

Mostly concerned over associated engine wear from dilution when out of warranty and whether the finance company will raise the issue when the car goes back in a years time.

Does this issue effect newer DS models, if not then that would indicate that JLR have a fix?
Oil analysis has raised concerns about progressive damage to engine components such as bearings, ring packs and cylinder liners but it's too early to draw firm conclusions. Dealers (and therefore the finance companies) remain oblivious to any potential threat coming from this direction. However, no-one who has commented on this forum believes that the diesel DS is a long-term keeper, there are just too many risks to the wallet. It is the automotive lady of the night - just enjoy the experience that you have paid for, don't fall in love, don't think about marriage, don't get hurt and take precautions.

After 3 years of stalling by JLR it's now clear that nothing can be done to fix the issue due to the amount of re-engineering required. Thus we continue to have regular reports of 8 month-old 2018 cars hitting the service message at 6,000 to 8,000 miles (scan the Service interval thread) and this will continue at least until the new model appears next year. Watch these pages and around the middle of next year there will be an influx of new Landmark owners popping up who had no idea about this problem when they bought their (otherwise lovely) tax-efficient diesels. They will all be asking the same question: Why is my new car asking for a service before 10,000 miles?

The solution, as mentioned elsewhere, is to buy a petrol and swallow the higher fuel bills. Or vote with your feet, as many others have done.
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Re: Oil dilution - advice please

Post by snoopyhaynes » Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:21 pm

I might look at rejecting the vehicle under misrepresentation or poor quality if JLR refuse to cover oil change costs after March - I still have the original 2016 brochure which states the service intervals.

Next step is JLR customer services then legal advice if no joy.
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Re: Service interval OR NOT.

Post by Zedman » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:57 am

Iamthemanny wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:02 pm
hseblack wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:41 pm
I have recently ordered a DS Landmark for March 2019, I did ask the question should I need an oil change what is the position and the salesmans reply was that as from January 2019 customers will be asked to sign a disclaimer before taking the car off the forecourt. I note the JLR100 amendment and good will gesture and a dealer claims against the warranty, what is the current viewpoint on this topic thanks in anticipation.
I think the good will oil changes must be costing a fortune. Sadly with JLR financial position from last few months it is another cost cutter.

If I could buy again now, I would go petrol due to all tye time I have wasted getting the car serviced every 6 months.

It is sad that they are now forcing customers, to pay for, what appears to be bad engineering which they cannot fix. If they still exist get the service plan. I did not and that has made it harder.

It will be interesting to see what they do when a new model comes out. I would have thought the Disco dport is a high volume seller. But I have no data to back that up.
They can fix the problem or more to the point mitigate the issue so that the engine will go 21K miles till it needs an oil change. They are waiting for a patent to be applied.
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Re: Service interval OR NOT.

Post by Chippy » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:36 pm

Zedman wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:57 am

They can fix the problem or more to the point mitigate the issue so that the engine will go 21K miles till it needs an oil change. They are waiting for a patent to be applied.
This makes interesting reading and I wonder if this is the patent Zedman is referring to.

http://images2.freshpatents.com/imagevi ... 0180010501
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Re: Service interval OR NOT.

Post by Barnsh » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:06 pm

Chippy wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:36 pm
Zedman wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:57 am

They can fix the problem or more to the point mitigate the issue so that the engine will go 21K miles till it needs an oil change. They are waiting for a patent to be applied.
This makes interesting reading and I wonder if this is the patent Zedman is referring to.

http://images2.freshpatents.com/imagevi ... 0180010501
Appears at first glance from reading the limited text that this is a continuation of existing patent and not new, which would be listed in its own right?
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THIS COULD FIX THE EXHAUST

Post by PhilMabbots17 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:55 pm

Chippy wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:36 pm
This makes interesting reading and I wonder if this is the patent Zedman is referring to.
http://images2.freshpatents.com/imagevi ... 0180010501
This appears to be the original patent Pub. No.: US 2016/0230629 A1 which was granted to Jaguar Land Rover (inventor Michael Davies) on Aug. 11, 2016, The grant was based on application PCT/EP2014/069774 submitted 17 September 2014.

US20160230629A1.pdf
(1.18 MiB) Downloaded 30 times

I looks like a smoking gun, equally revealing as JLRP00100. Why? Because this invention represents a conscious attempt to fix every one of the exhaust faults that we've heard that JLR engineers knew would occur with the Ingenium diesel before even a single DS was sold. These are faults that JLR still officially denies while it continues to blame our "driving style". In 2014, someone sat down and designed a radically different exhaust system with a view to avoiding the diesel dilution problem but it never made it into production. According to VDS, engineers who came to inspect his car were prepared to talk freely about this in October 2017, such was the level of their frustration at their management's mishandling of the exhaust design issue.
NoDiscoSport wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:19 pm
You are right. It's a slow burner but there's something very wrong here and eventually the truth might have to come out. The engineer who came out to my car was very clear in what he told the local service supervisor - this didn't just "happen" in the field and take everyone by surprise. The powertrain engineers knew in advance what would happen due to the consequences of positioning a 3-way catalyst-on-filter device so far back from the engine. He said they told management they needed to shorten the service intervals to 16K, or better still 12K. He said they were told that it would stay at 21K as per the marketing positioning and that they needed to keep working on finding a way to make it work.
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=7166&start=20
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=7166&p=78545#p78545
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5379&p=79951#p79951


The patent awarded to JLR in 2016 is for a diesel oxidation catalyst (DOC or diesel oxidation and NOx absorption catalyst, DONAC) so tightly coupled to the engine that it is physically incorporated into the exhaust manifold itself! It features a Urea injection port just before the oxidised exhaust gases flow into the turbo-charger, then a very close-coupled DPF/SCR device followed by a tapping for LP EGR before the rest of the system. I've picked out a few paragraphs containing the key words and hi-lighted them for anyone who doesn't want to scan the whole document. When the management told engineers that they "needed to keep working on finding a way to make it work", perhaps this patent represented the solution that they had in mind.

I sincerely hope that this thing eventually works and is compact enough to be retrofitted to every single L550 ever made. But, even if it doesn't, it provides another strong strand of evidence that what has been said all along about the design faults - and JLR's deliberate attempts to hide them - is correct and provable. There's no doubt about the target vehicles for this invention: it had to be the AJ200 diesel Discovery Sport and Range Rover Evoque because these were the only models using, or scheduled to use, SCRF technology at the time.

Patent.PNG

[0009] According to an aspect of the present invention there is provided an exhaust treatment apparatus for an internal combustion engine, the apparatus comprising:

[0010] a catalyst chamber containing a catalyst;
[0011] at least one exhaust gas inlet for supplying exhaust gases from the internal combustion engine to the catalyst chamber,
[0012] an exhaust gas outlet for supplying exhaust gases from the catalyst chamber to a turbocharger; and
[0013] an injection nozzle for introducing a reductant into the exhaust gases between the catalyst and the turbocharger.

[0014] At least in certain embodiments, the light-off time of the catalyst can be reduced since it is disposed upstream of the turbocharger. The reductant and exhaust gases flow through the turbocharger together and this can promote evaporation and mixing through the turbocharger. The reductant can be introduced at an earlier point in time from cold start or at lower vehicle speeds. The reductant can, for example, be urea which can operatively be introduced into the flow of exhaust gases in an aqueous liquid form.

[0015] The mixture of reductant and exhaust gases can subsequently be passed through a selective catalytic reduction (SCR) system or a selective catalytic reduction filter (SCRF) system. The apparatus can be configured to make use of existing packaging space within the vehicle to enable closer coupling of downstream after-treatment devices (e.g. cDPF, SCR, SCRF) with light-off and packaging benefits.

[0016] The catalyst can be carried on, or supported by, a substrate (or support structure). The substrate can define the three-dimensional open structure of the catalyst. The substrate can have a three-dimensional porous nature. By way of example, the Substrate can comprise a ceramic foam, a metallic foam or a fibrous structure. The substrate can be fully or partially coated with a catalytic coating (DOC or diesel oxidation and NOx absorption catalyst, DONAC).

[0069] The outlet port 21 is connected to a turbocharger 25 which is driven by the exhaust gases to provide forced induction for the engine 5 in conventional manner. The reductant 23 and exhaust gas are mixed further as they pass through the turbocharger 25. A combined selective catalytic reduction (SCR) and diesel particular filter (DPF) is provided down stream of the turbocharger 25 in the form of a selective catalytic reduction filter (SCRF)29. It will be appreciated that the SCR and the DPF could be provided as separate modules. A low pressure return line 31 is connected downstream of the SCRF 29 to provide low pressure exhaust gas recirculation (LPEGR). A conventional silencer or muffler (not shown) is typically provided downstream of the low pressure return line 31, for example disposed at the rear of the vehicle V. It will be appreciated that not all engines utilise LPEGR and the low pressure return line 31 can be omitted in certain embodimentS.

[0076] The operation of the DOC 3 will now be described with reference to the accompanying Figures. When the engine 5 is initially started, the DOC 3 achieves a light-off (operating) temperature more quickly than conventional catalysts as it is disposed closer to the engine 5. The DOC 3 can thereby begin to perform oxidation more quickly than conventional catalysts. The exhaust gases from the engine 5 are introduced into the exhaust manifold 13 from each cylinder 9A-D through the respective exhaust gas inlets 11A-D. The exhaust gases are introduced into the exhaust manifold 13 in a series of pulses dependent on the operating cycle of each cylinder within the engine 5. These pulses help to circulate the exhaust gases through the substrate 33. The substrate 33 can help to suppress noise radiation from the exhaust manifold 13 caused by the exhaust gas pulses.

[0077] The exhaust gases enter the apertures 41A-D formed in the substrate 33 and then travel through its open pore structure. By positioning the catalyst 35 within the exhaust manifold 13, the required light-off (operating) temperature can be achieved more quickly than conventional catalysts. The catalytic treatment of the exhaust gases can thereby occur over a wider range of operating conditions. The catalyst 35 uses oxygen to convert carbon monoxide (CO) and carbonaceous particulate matter in the exhaust gases to carbon dioxide (CO); and hydrocarbons (HC) in the exhaust gases to water (HO) and CO. The substrate 33 and/or the catalyst 35 can also function to clean exhaust gases prior to recirculation through the high-pressure return line 17. At least Some of the hydrocarbons and particulates in the exhaust gases can be removed within the exhaust manifold 13, thereby helping to reduce the build-up of contaminants in the engine 5, for example on valves, when the exhaust gas is recirculated to the engine 5 through the high-pressure return line 17.

[0078] As outlined above, the reductant 23 is introduced into the mixing chamber second region 39 as a liquid from the injection nozzle 19. For example, the reductant 23 can be an aqueous solution of urea. The reductant 23 is vaporised in the mixing chamber 43 and mixes with the exhaust gases. This arrangement ensures that the reductant 23 is not exposed to catalyst 35 which would potentially promote the formation of nitrogen oxides (NOx). In prior art systems, the reductant 23 is introduced downstream of the turbocharger 25. However, in the present embodiment, the reductant 23 is introduced upstream of the turbocharger 25 resulting in increased mixing with the exhaust gases as they travel through the turbocharger 25. The efficacy of the reductant 23 in removing nitrogen oxides (NOx) on the downstream SCR(F) catalyst from the exhaust gases can potentially be increased. At least in certain embodiments, it is not necessary to provide a separate urea mixer which might otherwise result in an unwanted backpressure increase. Furthermore, the SCRF 29 can be moved closer to the turbocharger 25 as it is not necessary to introduce the reductant 23 into the exhaust gases between these components and allow it to evaporate and mix with the exhaust gas prior to the SCR(F) catalyst.

[0079] The catalyst 35 within the catalyst chamber C may accumulate carbonaceous particulates over a period of time but can be regenerated periodically by employing a conventional regeneration strategy. The exhaust manifold 13 can be an assembly, for example consisting of first and second components, to enable the catalyst 35 to be replaced. Alternatively, the exhaust manifold 13 can have a sealed construction. The catalyst 35 could be formed inside the exhaust manifold 13.

[0080] The SCRF 29 disposed downstream of the turbo-charger 25 functions in conventional manner to convert nitrogen oxides (NOx) in the exhaust gases into nitrogen (N) and water (H2O). During this process, the reductant added upstream of the turbocharger 25 is absorbed onto a catalyst in the SCRF 29. Some of the exhaust gases downstream of the SCRF 29 are recirculated to the internal combustion engine 5 through the low pressure return line 31 in known manner.

[0081] FIGS. 1, 2 and 3 are intended merely to provide schematic representations of the apparatus 1. Notably, the positioning of the apparatus 1 within the vehicle V, as shown in FIG. 2, is not necessarily representative of a production arrangement. A possible arrangement would be to position the SCRF 29 within the engine bay, for example in front of the vehicle dashboard/pedals (not shown).
Last edited by PhilMabbots17 on Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Service interval

Post by Dashnine » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:23 pm

I can't see them retrofitting the exhaust system of 400K DS (100K cars a year, mainly diesel over the last 4 years?), the cost would be extortionate and much more than the cost of filters and oil for those 'entitled' to it.

I can see it being the exhaust system of the new Evoque and the DS2 however.
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Re: Service interval

Post by Badgerface » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:40 pm

Doesn't the SD4 (240) Powertrain utilise this already?
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Re: Service interval

Post by hseblack » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:53 pm

My 2018 HSE Sport Black is up for renewal so I have ordered a HSE Sport Landmark Edition unfortunately this is only available in a 180ps diesel auto otherwise a good package. I mentioned about the oil quality/oil dilution scenario and asked if the pre 21,000mls free oil/filter change is still applicable, the reply was that at handover customers are asked to sign a disclaimer and in not doing so would affect the warranty. Over a barrel methinks and an extortionate amount for an oil change £288, as I understand it only JLR can perform this task and delete the warning light which sucks.


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Re: Service interval

Post by Past master » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:05 pm

I think a procedure for resetting the warning has been posted on here somewhere. Haven't tried it though.
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