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Engine replacing Balance Shaft

211K views 357 replies 86 participants last post by  CMJS2 
#1 ·
Good evening All

Very much gutted after being told by my local dealer (which is not in the uk) that JLR has examined the very high pitch sound coming from the engine upon accelerating and going thru the gears ? And after accessing some test feedback here they have concluded that a new engine is required ! Im still under shock from after hearing this. Never in my wildest dreams or nightmares would i have fathomed a 4 month old under 3500 mile engine needing replacement... Your thoughts if any please....?
 
#302 ·
adeolly said:
Careless said:
evening all, thought i'd join the party, disco sport landmark new sept 2018, developed a whine at about 5000 miles, booked in with the dealer (6 week wait time), diagnosed as balancing shaft, back in next tuesday 3rd september for replacement

reading the various forums on this, it's not uncommon for this to re-occur. I suppose there is little chance of rejecting the vehicle at this stage, but any advice very welcome
I had the balance shafts replaced on y F-Pace at 5800 miles. Car is now at 15,000 and its not re-occurred, In fact engine has now loosened up fully and is much sweeter than it was. Personally I don't believe oil dilution is the (only?) cause of the balance shaft issue. In my case, my driving is nearly all long jouneys and I could count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I got out of the car to the smell of an interrupted DPF regen. I was lent a nearly new 306BHP Range Rover Sport for the duration of the repair, so no hardship at all. In fact I'd have happily kept the RRS.

Issue has not occurred on our DS which is now at 19K miles and continues to run perfectly with no issues at all.....
I'm not convinced it has nothing to do with oil dilution
Looking at the customer service colour coding of dilution , for balance shafts you get
Cars listed as green - unheard of
Cars listed as orange - one or two ( including FPace)
Cars listed as red- quite a lot more ( includes Evoque , DS, EPace)
 
#303 ·
This is not true.

I have a Jaguar XE 180D Late 2018. Developed balance shaft issue at 5000 miles. This car is listed as green on Oil dilution bulletin, as is the F-PACE.

I think the balance shaft issue is specific to 2017-2018 models and JLR are now replacing them with a modified balance shaft.

I doubt it has anything to do with oil dilution, may be poor design and poor oil delivery to the balance shaft.
 
#304 ·
Naqshejahan said:
This is not true.

I have a Jaguar XE 180D Late 2018. Developed balance shaft issue at 5000 miles. This car is listed as green on Oil dilution bulletin, as is the F-PACE.

I think the balance shaft issue is specific to 2017-2018 models and JLR are now replacing them with a modified balance shaft.

I doubt it has anything to do with oil dilution, may be poor design and poor oil delivery to the balance shaft.
The correlation of number of cars affected is directly in line with DPF issues. / oil dilution.
Just because your in the green crowd doesn't mean it will never happen.

I don't think it's just oil dilution as I said previously , there is another fundamental issue possibly exacerbated by oil dilution ( poor oil viscosity) . It's pretty easy to sea the poor lubrication if the overheated and blues bearings on the shaft.
You also have to remember they had a run of dicky oil pumps thrown into the mix.
The diesel by its clattery ( to some) nature needs more balancing than a petrol so it's also another possibility it's just not man enough for the job.

Either way if you count up all the JLR vehicles with balance shaft issues across forums you get the same green orange red.
 
#305 ·
Naqshejahan said:
This is not true.

I have a Jaguar XE 180D Late 2018. Developed balance shaft issue at 5000 miles. This car is listed as green on Oil dilution bulletin, as is the F-PACE.

I think the balance shaft issue is specific to 2017-2018 models and JLR are now replacing them with a modified balance shaft.

I doubt it has anything to do with oil dilution, may be poor design and poor oil delivery to the balance shaft.
Ah that chestnut ...modified but with the same part number ...mmmmm
 
#306 ·
I have written confirmation via email that it is a modified balance shaft which they are now using. Will see how it develops. I hope this fixes it.

I cant see how you have arrived at a correlation between oil dilution and rate of balance shaft failure.

The ECU would recommend oil change once dilution hits 6%. At this level, I would imagine that load bearing surfaces like crank shaft would be more susceptible to damage. I think the balance shaft is a separate issue, but I may be wrong.

BW

Naqshejahan
 
#307 ·
Naqshejahan said:
I have written confirmation via email that it is a modified balance shaft which they are now using. Will see how it develops. I hope this fixes it.

I cant see how you have arrived at a correlation between oil dilution and rate of balance shaft failure.

The ECU would recommend oil change once dilution hits 6%. At this level, I would imagine that load bearing surfaces like crank shaft would be more susceptible to damage. I think the balance shaft is a separate issue, but I may be wrong.

BW

Naqshejahan
Sure is hard to define exactly what it is , but lubrication is favourite looking at the balance shaft video of the strip down.
The balance shafts are rotating at twice the speed of the engine , do any lack of oil or poor viscosity won't do them any good.
My concern with changing just the shafts has always been the fact the outer race of the bearing is part of the engine and is not changed when the shaft is changed- effectively changing half a bearing . The inner race and rollers being pressed to the shaft.

Hope your new shafts work out well for you .
 
#308 ·
Barnsh said:
Naqshejahan said:
I have written confirmation via email that it is a modified balance shaft which they are now using. Will see how it develops. I hope this fixes it.

I cant see how you have arrived at a correlation between oil dilution and rate of balance shaft failure.

The ECU would recommend oil change once dilution hits 6%. At this level, I would imagine that load bearing surfaces like crank shaft would be more susceptible to damage. I think the balance shaft is a separate issue, but I may be wrong.

BW

Naqshejahan
Sure is hard to define exactly what it is , but lubrication is favourite looking at the balance shaft video of the strip down.
The balance shafts are rotating at twice the speed of the engine , do any lack of oil or poor viscosity won't do them any good.
My concern with changing just the shafts has always been the fact the outer race of the bearing is part of the engine and is not changed when the shaft is changed- effectively changing half a bearing . The inner race and rollers being pressed to the shaft.

Hope your new shafts work out well for you .
The only oil spray nozzles in the sump are the four piston cooling oil jets located adjacent to each cylinder and secured into the cylinder block with a bolt (2, 3, 4, 5 below) . These jets provide piston and gudgeon pin cooling and lubrication through a single outlet nozzle which sprays oil into the cooling chamber in the piston. In addition to supplying oil to the piston cooling gallery the oil lubricates the small end bearing and gudgeon pin.
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The balance shaft bearings are not specifically served by the piston cooling jets and rely on the general "oil mist" present in the crank case for their lubrication.
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From the maintenance manual.

Dynamic Balance Shafts

The engine balance system consists of two eccentric weighted dynamic balancer shafts which oppose vibrations created by the engine's reciprocating components. The dynamic balancers are mounted into machined bores inside the cylinder block. The two dynamic balancers rotate in opposite directions, driven at twice the speed of the crankshaft by a dynamic balancer gear pressed onto the crankshaft. The equally sized eccentric weights are phased so that the inertia reaction to their counter-rotation cancels out vibration caused by the engine. One of the dynamic balancers is driven off an 86-teeth dynamic balancer ring gear located on the crankshaft which rotates a 43-teeth driven gear on the driven dynamic balancer. The second dynamic balancer is driven off the same ring gear through a 45-teeth idler gear which rotates the 43-teeth driven gear on the driven dynamic balancer.

The idler gear is mounted on to the cylinder block using a steel idler bush which is pressed into the cylinder block. Driven gears on one of the dynamic balancers and the idler gear are anti-backlash "scissor" gears in order to minimize noise. All the gears are helical to ensure smooth operation. The dynamic balancers are located on needle roller bearings which run on outer races installed in the cylinder block machined bores. The bearings are lubricated by oil mist during engine operation. It is important to make sure that each dynamic balancer is timed correctly in respect to the crankshaft using alignment tool(s).
There are several conditions that could result in inadequate lubrication reaching the needle roller bearings and we can all imagine one or two for ourselves. Here was my first thought when I looked at this: where does the oil mist originate? At least some proportion of it must come from the piston cooling jets. But digging a bit deeper reveals that these jets don't operate all the time: they are switched on and off according to the engine temperature. Again, the maintenance manual provides the details:

The jets are supplied pressurized engine oil from the variable flow oil pump with integral vacuum pump via a drilling in the cylinder block. The oil supply to the drilling is controlled by a piston cooling oil jets solenoid which is controlled by the Powertrain Control Module (PCM). The solenoid can open and close the oil supply depending on engine speed and load.
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The implication is that the "piston cooling oil jets solenoid" turns these jets on only when the engine is hot or working hard. Light bulb moment....
Might balance shaft failures be occurring more frequently in cars that are driven in a more "relaxed" fashion? :eek: :shock:
Is there always a delay in lubrication reaching the bearings at start up?
Could the cooling jets be tricked into staying on?

Any brother/sister engineers out there care to comment?
 

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#309 ·
Hi, I am not an engineer & could not comment on the technical arguments, but I can spot a real worry hear for members who intend to keep their vehicle, failure of the solonoid in future could be a disaster.A faulty part stuck in the closed position could ( I assume) lead to loss of oil supply & eventual engine failure??
I am waiting for delivery of a 2020 version of the Discovery Sport in November. Hope all the issues have been sorted with the uprated model
 
#310 ·
Update: Balance shaft replaced.
Received car on 27th September. So far no more signs of the whining balance shaft noise. Hope it stays that way.
The person dealing with my case said the problem with the previous balance shaft was that the oil nozzles delivering oil to the bearings were too small. This resulted in insufficient oil delivery specially when cold.
Apparently the new balance shafts have bigger nozzles and are more sturdy.

I will post an update in another 5000-10000 miles
 
#311 ·
Naqshejahan said:
Update: Balance shaft replaced.
Received car on 27th September. So far no more signs of the whining balance shaft noise. Hope it stays that way.
The person dealing with my case said the problem with the previous balance shaft was that the oil nozzles delivering oil to the bearings were too small. This resulted in insufficient oil delivery specially when cold.
Apparently the new balance shafts have bigger nozzles and are more sturdy.

I will post an update in another 5000-10000 miles
Good luck with your new balance shafts.

Do we know the part number for those jets? I think it could be similar to the one for the oil dilution sensor.
 
#314 ·
Rediscovery said:
Naqshejahan said:
Update: Balance shaft replaced.
Received car on 27th September. So far no more signs of the whining balance shaft noise. Hope it stays that way.
The person dealing with my case said the problem with the previous balance shaft was that the oil nozzles delivering oil to the bearings were too small. This resulted in insufficient oil delivery specially when cold.
Apparently the new balance shafts have bigger nozzles and are more sturdy.

I will post an update in another 5000-10000 miles
Good luck with your new balance shafts.

Do we know the part number for those jets? I think it could be similar to the one for the oil dilution sensor.
More importantly, have they a vin range of affected vehicles , or are we asking for too much to be to,d which vehicles are affected?
Guess they are secret 😂😂
 
#315 ·
Would this problem cause an increase in fuel consumption? I'm struggling to get much more than 30mpg on the motorway, down from around 40mpg just as I thought the engine was loosening up a bit.

There's a definite chirp/whine from the engine above 2500rpm, and car is 19MY so I'd hoped any issues would be fixed by now. Thought I'd ask before moaning to the dealer.

Thanks
 
#316 ·
Hi, Just been told by the dealer that my 8500 mile 6 month old MY19 Landmark needs the balance shafts replacing to fix the engine noise I reported. Any tips on what I should ask for to ensure it gets the newer shafts, or are these fitted as standard now regardless? Should I even be asking for a whole engine as just under 6 months old ? Much appreciated.

If anyone is trying to keep track of affected vehicles, this was built circa March 2019.

Cheers
 
#317 ·
Silly question possibly but will the dealership change the oil and filter as part of the balance shaft "repair "?
I only ask as I was going to do an intermediate oil change over Christmas but I now have her booked in for balance shafts 3rd week in January.
If they aren't then the oil change can wait a month.
 
#318 ·
Andy131 said:
Silly question possibly but will the dealership change the oil and filter as part of the balance shaft "repair "?
I only ask as I was going to do an intermediate oil change over Christmas but I now have her booked in for balance shafts 3rd week in January.
If they aren't then the oil change can wait a month.
it would be crazy not to change the oil following any mechanical failure.

The bearings "fail" because somewhere along the way they start to change shape by shedding metal.

Now I wonder where that might go.....?
 
#319 ·
It's a good question regarding the oil change and one I'm still chasing with dealer and JLR customer services.
Had the balance shafts done at approx 10k miles about a month back, asked the dealer on return if the work counted as an oil change service and was told 'no' that would still be in another 10k so at 20k total.
InControl app however states service due in 19k miles now, so something has been reset and as you say surely foolish not to change oil and filter when doing this work.
JLR customer service not able to confirm when service is due (so far), ie is it what dealer said or what their app says...

If anyone knows, appreciated
James
 
#321 ·
Oil change is standard requirement for the balance shaft change, it's in the job sheet and I confirmed it with the dealer when i booked-in as I was planning my own 10-11,000 miles change (so saved the oil till next time).

My shafts were changed at about 11,500, so 10,000 miles ago so I'm pretty confident that the new parts are doing the job correctly (even though I had no issues with my 3 years and 60,000 miles on its 15MY predecessor HSE with early Ingenium engine).

By the by, I just booked in for drive shaft bearing replacement, drivers side and the technician who confirmed my diagnosis on short road demonstration, told me that this has happened before after the driveshaft has been disturbed, e.g. as part of the balance shaft change when the powertrain is disconnected to remove it. Apparently some preload on the shaft/CV joint is disturbed and it does not go back together quite the same making the RH support bearing noise more likely.

It would be interesting to know how many other owners have had the driveshaft issue after the balance shaft change compared with those who had driveshaft noise repaired on its own.
 
#322 ·
Add another to the list... :shock:

A December 2018 Discovery Sport that needs a balance shaft replaced after only 10,000km.

The engine whine started at about 7500km and is getting worse. :(

Kicks in from around 1500rpm, peaks at around 2200rpm, then settles a bit as the transmission changes gear only to steadily rise again.
No power loss apparent.

Local dealer (Wagga Wagga NSW Australia) very helpful but they have to order the parts (2-3 weeks) and then they will need the vehicle for a week . Service tech told me not to drive it so we'll be on to Land Rover tomorrow for a loan car until it's fixed.

Without reading all 32 pages (I will tonight) surely that can't be doing the engine any good.

AP
 
#323 ·
Don't over-worry AveragePunter. The bearing get noisier but I've never heard of a failure. I asked to see the shafts/bearings taken out of mine and the surface marking was very slight despite the noise level.
My bearings were changed in 2 -days, actually a day and a half but it suited me to collect the car at th end of the second day. Mine was quite new (11,500 miles at the time of repair) and it came a part and went back together easily. I doubt they really need it for a week!
 
#324 ·
Had my 2018 HSE in at main dealer for them to fix an annoying vibration from around the centre console area (there 4th attempt at it). Called me today and said it was now fixed and then asked if I had heard a whine from the engine which I hadn't. Told me the noise was from the balance shaft and that I would need to bring the vehicle back in for it to be replaced and that they would need it for two weeks. I asked if a full engine change was needed and they said no. It will be done under warranty but still a bit concerning
 
#325 ·
UPDATE
Spoke to Land Rover Customer Relations today.
Was told the balance shaft problem is a "known issue" and the car is perfectly roadworthy.
I explained that we were planning approximately 3000km of travel between now and the repair and I was told that "even if the balance shaft is not replaced it will not do any damage, just make a noise"
Interestingly he said "balance shafts are all being replaced" but denied there was a full recall.
No loan car was offered during the wait time but I can get a loaner when the car is actually in for service.
 
#326 ·
mine were done this week - well actually a week and a day, but who's counting. Turns out the engine is actually silent, seriously mines always had the supercharger type whine since I picked it up late November.

Shame is I can't drive the car because some kind soul drove into the side and it has been declared unfit to drive until repaired. His insurer Admiral are playing hard ball and refusing to let me use the repairer recommended by Farnell. So I get a loan car, then I don't, then maybe I do if I use their repairer, then they will issue a check for 60% of the repair quote (their engineer says it will cost a lot less if their repairer).
 
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