Service interval

Engine, Exhaust, Drivetrain, ECU Faults and Fixes
Rediscovery
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Re: Service interval

Post by Rediscovery » Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:40 pm

Google's Related Searches uses AI to predict what I was "probably" looking for based on the words that I entered into my search. It's got nothing to do with my personal history. It's a kind of intelligent guess based on what other people looked for when they also used those words.
As well as arming you with keyword phrases to fit into your articles, related searches also give you a massive insight into who your customers are and what their intent is.
More here:

https://www.smartinsights.com/search-engine-optimisation-seo/seo-strategy/using-related-searches-google-helps-boost-seo/
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SarahStreet
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Re: Service interval

Post by SarahStreet » Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:42 pm

What an awful lot of posters forget is that the algorithm in distance to service doesn't just compute probable distance based on stop/starts and regens, it also factors in original timescales.

For example, if an early oil change was made at say circa 11k and 9 months, the distance reset would not override time to next service, and the vehicle would calculate (fairly quickly) that the the service would be due in 13 months best, adjusted for journey start/stop times over a period of real time.

To give this to you in English/laymans terms - my own personal DS is not due a service until next July. It had an interim oil change at the end of July this year, and the service counter has leapt down from 19850 to 12200 inside of 3000 motorway miles. Some of you might be alarmed at that, personally I'm not. It's in keeping with TIME to next service. If it drops to 3000 miles inside the next 3 months,then all of you fretting will have a point, but I am certain that it won't. It's not just counting down oil services due to journey regens, it's also factoring in time to service as well. Something that I can guarantee that you are all overlooking in the grand scheme of things.

Drive the car and enjoy it. Stop worrying unduly, life is too short (as is vehicle life!)

Kip Hunter
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Re: Service interval

Post by Kip Hunter » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:52 am

Just tried it and, as predicted, the first eight responses were related to dilution on Land Rovers. Not sure if the first one counts or not...

Capture.PNG


Past master
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Re: Service interval

Post by Past master » Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:33 pm

Of course we could just forget about the "21000 mile/2 year" service and service our cars sensibly on an annual/12000 mile basis. Not all Google results concern JLR - here's a very sensible one regarding Audi, Mercedes etc, which sets out very clearly what we all know, but in relation to German cars. The recommendation is to service annually and use premium grade fuel. Interestingly it does also suggest that at least some German models let you know that regen is happening by flashing the glowplug light. Oh - and it mentions "driving style" too.
https://www.autotecnic.co.uk/maintenance/diesel-particulate-filters-dpf-technical-info/
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Robsters
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Re: Service interval

Post by Robsters » Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:05 pm

Past master wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:33 pm
Of course we could just forget about the "21000 mile/2 year" service and service our cars sensibly on an annual/12000 mile basis. Not all Google results concern JLR - here's a very sensible one regarding Audi, Mercedes etc, which sets out very clearly what we all know, but in relation to German cars. The recommendation is to service annually and use premium grade fuel. Interestingly it does also suggest that at least some German models let you know that regen is happening by flashing the glowplug light. Oh - and it mentions "driving style" too.
https://www.autotecnic.co.uk/maintenance/diesel-particulate-filters-dpf-technical-info/
Wish i could take a sensible approach and service every 12000 miles instead of the 5000 average at the moment! and its not down to my driving style or fuel, i am not alone with this issue but if land rover want to keep pretending all is rosy in the garden then hey ho.
First time LR owner, I have joined more forums than I care to remember over the years from Volvo, VW, Mazda, Peugeot, Ford, Vauxhall, Fiat and probably others!!
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Rediscovery
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Re: Service interval

Post by Rediscovery » Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:41 pm

Past master wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:33 pm
Of course we could just forget about the "21000 mile/2 year" service and service our cars sensibly on an annual/12000 mile basis. Not all Google results concern JLR - here's a very sensible one regarding Audi, Mercedes etc, which sets out very clearly what we all know, but in relation to German cars. The recommendation is to service annually and use premium grade fuel. Interestingly it does also suggest that at least some German models let you know that regen is happening by flashing the glowplug light. Oh - and it mentions "driving style" too.
https://www.autotecnic.co.uk/maintenance/diesel-particulate-filters-dpf-technical-info/
There was one mention each for "AUDI" and "MERCEDES" - but only because these names appeared in a marketing-oriented banner at the top. The company wrote this page to advertise their service-based wares: "We specialise in Engine Management Diagnostics & Computerised Wheel Alignment for all German Cars."
The web page from Autotecnic [sic] contains generic marketing boilerplate and has nothing to do with the specific problems affecting D8 cars.

Some people who bought DS and Evoque motor cars were misled about short journeys and DPF clogging. But everybody who expected a 21,000 mile service interval without incurring levels of diesel dilution that "will result in engine failure" was equally misled. Known faults (unresolved engineering "challenges") responsible for both of these problems were never disclosed to prospective buyers. According to recent accounts, many of the affected owners now find themselves being financially penalised as JLR and its dealers harden their stance over who should pay for additional oil changes, DPF replacement and so forth. This will get worse as more cars develop problems reaching the end of the warranty period. This did not arise as the result of an unfortunate accident: the evidence suggests that it was planned in advance.

People were told one thing.....

Evidence_2017_13A.PNG

….but not another. This crucial information was withheld to prevent customer sales objections:

D8.PNG

Capture.PNG

The reason this happened is unique to the D8 diesels made by JLR from 2015 onwards. The obstructing bulkhead and 70 cm of pipework has no parallel in any other car from this or any other manufacturer - perhaps because most car manufacturers carefully measure the engine compartment before selecting an engine. JLR's engineers didn't suddenly discover that this problem existed in 2016, they would have fully understood the implications of the "challenged" exhaust system long before a single car had left the factory.

Arguably, engineering should have persuaded executive management to come clean and change the service intervals to 12,000 miles while they had the chance. But that would have deterred many buyers and maybe that's why they left it where it was. Doing this enabled them to sell more cars: I know one victim who stated categorically that they would not have bought a diesel DS had it not been for the perceived benefits of extended service intervals. There are hundreds of others who would say the same thing. JLR eventually did change the brochures but some dealer sales staff still fudged the issue if it came up or created innovative ways to secure sales.

Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006 outlines the risks for any person who makes a fraudulent representation with the intention of making a gain for themselves (or someone else) or exposes another person to the risk of loss. The attached paper from Burges-Salmon published in January 2016 explained how this legislation could easily have been used against VW for making money from fraudulent sales of polluting vehicles: "Volkswagen appears to have admitted making false representations to customers regarding the emissions of its vehicles and the vehicles’ compliance with EU emissions standards. It is unlikely that prosecutors will struggle to establish that these false representations were made with the intention of making an economic gain. Prosecutors are also likely to be able to establish that the conduct was performed with the required state of mind. The maximum penalty for this offence is ten years in prison, a fine, or both."

FA_2006_s2.PNG

A few months later the government announced no action would be taken against VW here in the UK, a story that was covered by The Guardian in July 2016*. Presumably the UK felt that there was little it could do that would add materially to the prosecution being undertaken by the German authorities: in June 2018 Reuters announced that a one billion Euro fine had been levied against VW for its "emissions cheating" activities.

* https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jul/15/government-is-letting-vw-off-the-hook-over-emissions-scandal-say-mps
S2 Fraud Act 2006 Burges-Salmon.pdf
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Trojan
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Service interval - LRM article

Post by Trojan » Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:37 pm

LRM_Nov.PNG

Sadly there's nothing in this LRM article that hadn't already appeared somewhere on this forum by the end of 2017. Also it's inaccurate and incomplete. Someone should make it clear that this problem isn't exclusive to short journeys done in 16-17MY L538/L550 vehicles.
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HmmmUK
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Re: Service interval

Post by HmmmUK » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:54 pm

Rediscovery wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:16 pm
It's often been said that all EU6 diesels suffer from oil dilution, reduced service intervals and other problems associated with driving style. To see whether this is true I went to Google and entered the following search: diesel fio dilution eu6 service interval.

The top ten responses include nine related to current Jaguar Land Rover products. Google's "Related searches" also suggested that I might want to search on:

discovery oil dilution issue
range rover sport oil dilution
evoque oil dilution
discovery sport oil dilution
2.0 ingenium engine problems
velar oil dilution
land rover discovery forum
ingenium engine oil dilution

Not just a JLR issue then.
There a few people (some might even be the same person ;) ) posting regularly using these terms on JLR forums so perhaps this is skewing the results? The Search Engines just index what they find - so if the community is generating lots of info it will show up!
Long time Land Rover owner thinking about a new one! ...Bought a MY15 Evoque 2.2L in Nov 17.
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Ian_S
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Re: Service interval

Post by Ian_S » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:59 pm

Also the other reason it's not showing up for others is that unlike JLR they just officially reduced the service intervals and didn't set expectation sky high at 21,000 miles. If you get close to the stated interval then you're less likely to complain even if it's 10k vs. 14k. 10k vs 21k though is a different matter. We have no idea what dilution levels other manufacturers are running as they haven't needed to be scrutinised so much.

Now if you search for blocked DPFs, you get much more than just JLR...
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Rediscovery
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Diesel Dilution Process

Post by Rediscovery » Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:49 am

The simplistic explanation favoured by JLR for oil dilution is that it is the result of incomplete regenerations. This can make it appear that drivers are causing the problem. The truth (as JLR has confirmed) is that the architecture of the DS exhaust demands longer and more frequent periods of regeneration which serves to increase the probability that the same journey will interrupt a regeneration on this car but not, say, on a Jaguar XE which has the same engine but not the "challenged" exhaust.

The fact that oil dilution correlates well with post injection facilitated the creation of the algorithm that estimates it. I found a 10 year old presentation from the genesis period of this vital technology. It is an interesting read for the more technically minded amongst us and was given at the DEER conference held in 2009. Apologies if this has appeared before.
deer09_nanjundaswamy.pdf
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