Discovery Sport Forum banner

Service interval

1M views 3K replies 215 participants last post by  Past master 
#1 ·
My DS, first registered in November 2015 has covered 8910 miles.
A few days ago, on the InControl App, a Service Due Alert message appeared advising that my car is due for a service.
This coincided with an occasional message (on first start up of the day) saying that the oil level is low. This message did not stay, but disappeared once the tyre setting message had been displayed. I checked the oil level on the dipstick and it is showing full.
I spoke to my dealer who says that maybe due to the type of driving I have been doing (!!) the car needs an oil and filter change.
Anybody else had a similar experience?
 

Attachments

#3,253 ·
CocoPops said:
So how old is that document?
Quite damning really, I for one now want to know about the new DS. Based on that I'd cancel any order on D8 platform.
It must be pretty new as it mentions the oil dilution moving to 10% from 7%. I was not told any of this and if I had been, you would not have seen me for dust 😳
 
#3,254 ·
I got the 'service required' message on my dash last weekend - Saturday was 850 miles, Monday was 550 miles, Wednesday was 400, and 0 miles today.

Called local JRL and told to pop past and they'd reset the clock as it was an error. I mentioned about oil dilution and they clearly stated that would show as 'DPF blocked' on the dash. Erm, ok.

Roll up at 11 and they obviously checked the oil (credit to the engineers) and reported a 7.1% dilution.

Oil and filter change needed to the tune of £299. I calmly told them they were barking and I had the oil changed last proper service 6months ago.

I got a lot of drivel about service plans (I have one) and servicing being different things. Also told the position is no longer to provide free oil changes to the poor suckers who bought 16/17MY DS with the two year 24k service intervals, before the changes to advertising.

Absolute car crash of customer service. Pulled out the documents from this thread on my phone (thank you everyone!), which eventually knocked them down to £99, but still acknowledgement that the product is inherently faulty.

They had me over a barrel as I needed to be somewhere else, but with the paperwork and help from this thread I'll go to JLR for a refund.

Really sours me.

My DS is nearly four years old. They absolutely botched selling me a new one last year (check my other thread). It feels to me they don't want to sell new cars, and don't want to maintain their customer base with decent after sales service on over £40k of motor.

While there I overheard a lady and husband going mental (politely) at CS about their motor (I think a Jag) being in the garage more than on the road and they wanted a refund.

So what next ? WBAC then buy something else? XC60 ?
 
#3,255 ·
malkie76 said:
I got the 'service required' message on my dash last weekend - Saturday was 850 miles, Monday was 550 miles, Wednesday was 400, and 0 miles today.

Called local JRL and told to pop past and they'd reset the clock as it was an error. I mentioned about oil dilution and they clearly stated that would show as 'DPF blocked' on the dash. Erm, ok.

Roll up at 11 and they obviously checked the oil (credit to the engineers) and reported a 7.1% dilution.

Oil and filter change needed to the tune of £299. I calmly told them they were barking and I had the oil changed last proper service 6months ago.

I got a lot of drivel about service plans (I have one) and servicing being different things. Also told the position is no longer to provide free oil changes to the poor suckers who bought 16/17MY DS with the two year 24k service intervals, before the changes to advertising.

Absolute car crash of customer service. Pulled out the documents from this thread on my phone (thank you everyone!), which eventually knocked them down to £99, but still acknowledgement that the product is inherently faulty.

They had me over a barrel as I needed to be somewhere else, but with the paperwork and help from this thread I'll go to JLR for a refund.

Really sours me.

My DS is nearly four years old. They absolutely botched selling me a new one last year (check my other thread). It feels to me they don't want to sell new cars, and don't want to maintain their customer base with decent after sales service on over £40k of motor.

While there I overheard a lady and husband going mental (politely) at CS about their motor (I think a Jag) being in the garage more than on the road and they wanted a refund.

So what next ? WBAC then buy something else? XC60 ?
It's shocking how different each dealer is and the excuses they throw at you! Mine made me feel like they had done me a huge favour by not charging for the oil change, at this rate I will need 4 oil n filter changes a year, strangely that was not mentioned when I handed over my money for the car 😳 I will see where my legal route takes me then if I am left with the car it will be going to the highest bidder!
 
#3,257 ·
D3GGY said:
malkie76 said:
So what next ? WBAC then buy something else? XC60 ?
Pretty much what I have done, cant wait for my XC60

My best mate ditched his XJ for a Volvo S60 too for the very same reason and CRC just washed their hands of the valid warranty claim which was ongoing.
I like the 7-seats which I occasionally used on the DS, which I'd lose with the XC60, and can't defend the cost of an XC90. The 7-seats at the time (2015) was a USP for the DS.

I drove Fords for years, so might consider the new Kuga. All the fords I had (fiesta-sierra-mondeo then a focus ST) were bullet proof and never in the garage between services. Had the Focus-ST (2007; the 2.5T engine) from new(ish) for 8 years before getting my DS, so would also consider going back to a hot hatch.
 
#3,258 ·
VeryDiscoSport said:
Ian_S said:
lodgic said:
Does anyone know if they have improved the set up on the 2020 model (or the new Evoke as thats now out?
That is the question we all want an answer to... will take some time for it to pan out. There's little excuse though for not sorting it out on the new models!
I visited my friendly dealer this afternoon and picked up the exhaust parts diagram for the L551 2019 Range Rover Evoque.

The L551 exhaust appears to be identical to the outgoing L538 and staff said they see little chance that the "refresh" 20MY L550 Discovery Sport will be any different.

Hi Guys

I've been following this subject for some time and curiosity finally got the better of me. So today I got underneath one of these to have a look around.

View attachment 9518

The DPF appears to be centrally mounted and longitudinally it's still level with the driver's door. It's not quilted, just has a metallic protective shield. The DOC isn't visible from the engine compartment but the exhaust coming off the turbo is quilted and bends downwards through 90 degrees. In the flesh the layout appears to be exactly like the parts diagram for the new Evoque.

I didn't get inside but my impression of the interior was that it's OK, but not what I would expect on a luxury car. For instance, the original plastic/fabric covering on the upper doors and top of the instruments has been replaced by finely knobbled plastic like the boot.

As I only do about 10,000 miles a year I think I'll give it a miss.

Great forum.
 

Attachments

#3,263 ·
Dashnine said:
I guess they key question is why do you feel 6% 'safe' and 10% isn't?
Actually I would prefer no diesel dilution but this is the cost of driving a diesel in 2019. 6% has been used on the XE since 2015 and that car doesn't need N289 because, unlike the DS, it actually works as designed and advertised. The SCN said more than 6% FIO risked engine failure. Going to 10% is a compromise commercial decision - high enough to avoid a few more early oil changes, but not high enough to cause JLR to run out of replacement engines. Any fool knows that increasing oil dilution erodes the MTBF margins - I just don't want mine eroded any further than they are already.

I hear fuel in oil dilution is practically zero on a petrol. :D

Rectangle Font Magenta Circle Number
 

Attachments

#3,264 ·
With all due respect to the OP, the list should now read.

Since September 2015, when deliveries of Ingenium diesels began, JLR has:

1) delivered cars that concealed the problem from owners due to faulty "software";
2) denied the existence of the problem when it surfaced, allowing dealers to reset service counters and skip vital oil changes;
3) blamed the high oil dilution on a variety of factors, most of which boiled down to "software";
4) blamed "driving style" when they could no longer get away with blaming "software";
5) admitting in a leaked document that the problem is real and caused by the exhaust architecture and hardware;
6) admitted in the same document to changing marketing materials to deflect future customer dissatisfaction;
7) admitted in another document that, actually, the DS IS more heavily affected by Dilution and DPF blockage due to the longer distance from the engine to the DPF;
8) told dealers to advise certain customers to steer away from the diesel DS altogether to minimise their risk of experiencing oil dilution or a blocked DPF (these customers would apparently be OK if they bought an XE, according to JLR);
9) changed the dilution trigger from 6% to 10% to squeeze out 66% more miles between oil changes; and
10) termed this erosion of failure margins a "software enhancement". :lol: :lol: :lol:

I've paid to watch less entertaining circuses.

CRC@LandRover said:

I can confirm that Land Rover are currently working on a software enhancement in regards to the concerns that have been raised.

Unfortunately at this time, we have not been provided with an update as to when this will be released.

Once I have received further information I will arrange for the details to be posted in this forum.

I apologise for any inconvenience that this may cause.

Thanks,
Becci
 
#3,265 ·
Trojan said:
Dashnine said:
I guess they key question is why do you feel 6% 'safe' and 10% isn't?
Actually I would prefer no diesel dilution but this is the cost of driving a diesel in 2019. 6% has been used on the XE since 2015 and that car doesn't need N289 because, unlike the DS, it actually works as designed and advertised. The SCN said more than 6% FIO risked engine failure. Going to 10% is a compromise commercial decision - high enough to avoid a few more early oil changes, but not high enough to cause JLR to run out of replacement engines. Any fool knows that increasing oil dilution erodes the MTBF margins - I just don't want mine eroded any further than they are already.

I hear fuel in oil dilution is practically zero on a petrol. :D

SIM Message.PNG
The point I was trying to make (badly), is that the same people who said 6% was safe are now saying 10% is safe. Is this a financially led increase, or an Engineering led increase.

And yes, I'm hoping for low levels of oil dilution on my P240.....
 
#3,266 ·
I think we might apply Occams Razor to understand why Engineering looked for a solution for 2 to 3 years then apparently gave up and instead made a software change that has the effect of hiding the problem, disingenuously terming this a "software enhancement". How is this an enhancement except in a virtual, pretend world?

Put yourself in JLR's position for a minute. Sales of DS and Evoque models were down by a third when this (N289) was done and dealers had been warned not to sell these cars to a broad swathe of potential buyers because of known issues with diesel dilution and DPF clogging. The dilution problem, according to another JLR document, affects three specific models, two of which happen to be the compay's best sellers. From an engineering perspective it was known that the problem is insoluble without a hardware modification. The oil changes were costing them a small fortune and people were successfully rejecting cars on the basis of this problem. Diesel already had a bad reputation following VW while EU6 diesels make people doubly sensitive about DPF and oil dilution issues. Combine these commercial pressures with a need to make $2.5 billion of cost savings and a cynical software change might have been seen as the quickest and cheapest way out of a choke hold. Anyway, why stop after one lie? Remind me again why this came about on the DS/Evoque and not the XE?

Ah, yes, neck ties. People who know what went on will tell you off the record that Design refused to give Engineering the space they needed to fit the XE DPF behind the transverse Ingenium engine. That decision was, as we know, the single root cause behind all these problems. Now, who was it that made the decisions back then? Who reported to whom? So who ultimately signs off the engineering decisions today?

Well feck me. Once I stopped looking at the trees I suddenly became aware of the forest.
 
G
#3,267 ·
Trojan said:
With all due respect to the OP, the list should now read.

Since September 2015, when deliveries of Ingenium diesels began, JLR has:

1) delivered cars that concealed the problem from owners due to faulty "software";
2) denied the existence of the problem when it surfaced, allowing dealers to reset service counters and skip vital oil changes;
3) blamed the high oil dilution on a variety of factors, most of which boiled down to "software";
4) blamed "driving style" when they could no longer get away with blaming "software";
5) admitting in a leaked document that the problem is real and caused by the exhaust architecture and hardware;
6) admitted in the same document to changing marketing materials to deflect future customer dissatisfaction;
7) admitted in another document that, actually, the DS IS more heavily affected by Dilution and DPF blockage due to the longer distance from the engine to the DPF;
8) told dealers to advise certain customers to steer away from the diesel DS altogether to minimise their risk of experiencing oil dilution or a blocked DPF (these customers would apparently be OK if they bought an XE, according to JLR);
9) changed the dilution trigger from 6% to 10% to squeeze out 66% more miles between oil changes; and
10) termed this erosion of failure margins a "software enhancement". :lol: :lol: :lol:

I've paid to watch less entertaining circuses.

CRC@LandRover said:

I can confirm that Land Rover are currently working on a software enhancement in regards to the concerns that have been raised.

Unfortunately at this time, we have not been provided with an update as to when this will be released.

Once I have received further information I will arrange for the details to be posted in this forum.

I apologise for any inconvenience that this may cause.

Thanks,
Becci
Sums it up perfectly 👍

A decent car spoiled by corporate greed and corporate contempt for customers.
 
#3,268 ·
It's often been said that all EU6 diesels suffer from oil dilution, reduced service intervals and other problems associated with driving style. To see whether this is true I went to Google and entered the following search: diesel fio dilution eu6 service interval.

The top ten responses include nine related to current Jaguar Land Rover products. Google's "Related searches" also suggested that I might want to search on:

discovery oil dilution issue
range rover sport oil dilution
evoque oil dilution
discovery sport oil dilution
2.0 ingenium engine problems
velar oil dilution
land rover discovery forum
ingenium engine oil dilution

Not just a JLR issue then.
 
#3,269 ·
Rediscovery said:
It's often been said that all EU6 diesels suffer from oil dilution, reduced service intervals and other problems associated with driving style. To see whether this is true I went to Google and entered the following search: diesel fio dilution eu6 service interval.

The top ten responses include nine related to current Jaguar Land Rover products. Google's "Related searches" also suggested that I might want to search on:

discovery oil dilution issue
range rover sport oil dilution
evoque oil dilution
discovery sport oil dilution
2.0 ingenium engine problems
velar oil dilution
land rover discovery forum
ingenium engine oil dilution

Not just a JLR issue then.
I'm not sure that's an entirely valid 'experiment', given your likely previous search history unless you'd cleared all cookies and ran an anonymous browser session?
 
#3,270 ·
Yes, I'd thought of that but I always delete cached pages, browsing history, etc automatically on exit. The previous search was done from my ipad but I just got practically the same results on this desktop machine. I've tried Bing, Dogpile, Duckduckgo, Hotbot, Lycos, and Yahoo. The results are always the same give or take when the search string entered is "diesel fio dilution eu6 service interval" - Lycos and Bing I've never even visited before. I'm not sure what else can be done to create a virgin search.

Try it and see what you get: https://www.google.com/search?q=diesel+fio+dilution+eu6+service+interval

Rectangle Font Screenshot Parallel Number

Font Screenshot Parallel Number Software

Font Parallel Technology Screenshot Number

Rectangle Font Technology Screenshot Software
 

Attachments

#3,271 ·
Google's Related Searches uses AI to predict what I was "probably" looking for based on the words that I entered into my search. It's got nothing to do with my personal history. It's a kind of intelligent guess based on what other people looked for when they also used those words.

As well as arming you with keyword phrases to fit into your articles, related searches also give you a massive insight into who your customers are and what their intent is.
More here:

https://www.smartinsights.com/search-engine-optimisation-seo/seo-strategy/using-related-searches-google-helps-boost-seo/
 
#3,272 ·
What an awful lot of posters forget is that the algorithm in distance to service doesn't just compute probable distance based on stop/starts and regens, it also factors in original timescales.

For example, if an early oil change was made at say circa 11k and 9 months, the distance reset would not override time to next service, and the vehicle would calculate (fairly quickly) that the the service would be due in 13 months best, adjusted for journey start/stop times over a period of real time.

To give this to you in English/laymans terms - my own personal DS is not due a service until next July. It had an interim oil change at the end of July this year, and the service counter has leapt down from 19850 to 12200 inside of 3000 motorway miles. Some of you might be alarmed at that, personally I'm not. It's in keeping with TIME to next service. If it drops to 3000 miles inside the next 3 months,then all of you fretting will have a point, but I am certain that it won't. It's not just counting down oil services due to journey regens, it's also factoring in time to service as well. Something that I can guarantee that you are all overlooking in the grand scheme of things.

Drive the car and enjoy it. Stop worrying unduly, life is too short (as is vehicle life!)
 
#3,274 ·
Of course we could just forget about the "21000 mile/2 year" service and service our cars sensibly on an annual/12000 mile basis. Not all Google results concern JLR - here's a very sensible one regarding Audi, Mercedes etc, which sets out very clearly what we all know, but in relation to German cars. The recommendation is to service annually and use premium grade fuel. Interestingly it does also suggest that at least some German models let you know that regen is happening by flashing the glowplug light. Oh - and it mentions "driving style" too.
https://www.autotecnic.co.uk/maintenance/diesel-particulate-filters-dpf-technical-info/
 
#3,275 ·
Past master said:
Of course we could just forget about the "21000 mile/2 year" service and service our cars sensibly on an annual/12000 mile basis. Not all Google results concern JLR - here's a very sensible one regarding Audi, Mercedes etc, which sets out very clearly what we all know, but in relation to German cars. The recommendation is to service annually and use premium grade fuel. Interestingly it does also suggest that at least some German models let you know that regen is happening by flashing the glowplug light. Oh - and it mentions "driving style" too.
https://www.autotecnic.co.uk/maintenance/diesel-particulate-filters-dpf-technical-info/
Wish i could take a sensible approach and service every 12000 miles instead of the 5000 average at the moment! and its not down to my driving style or fuel, i am not alone with this issue but if land rover want to keep pretending all is rosy in the garden then hey ho.
 
#3,276 ·
Past master said:
Of course we could just forget about the "21000 mile/2 year" service and service our cars sensibly on an annual/12000 mile basis. Not all Google results concern JLR - here's a very sensible one regarding Audi, Mercedes etc, which sets out very clearly what we all know, but in relation to German cars. The recommendation is to service annually and use premium grade fuel. Interestingly it does also suggest that at least some German models let you know that regen is happening by flashing the glowplug light. Oh - and it mentions "driving style" too.
https://www.autotecnic.co.uk/maintenance/diesel-particulate-filters-dpf-technical-info/
There was one mention each for "AUDI" and "MERCEDES" - but only because these names appeared in a marketing-oriented banner at the top. The company wrote this page to advertise their service-based wares: "We specialise in Engine Management Diagnostics & Computerised Wheel Alignment for all German Cars."
The web page from Autotecnic [sic] contains generic marketing boilerplate and has nothing to do with the specific problems affecting D8 cars.

Some people who bought DS and Evoque motor cars were misled about short journeys and DPF clogging. But everybody who expected a 21,000 mile service interval without incurring levels of diesel dilution that "will result in engine failure" was equally misled. Known faults (unresolved engineering "challenges") responsible for both of these problems were never disclosed to prospective buyers. According to recent accounts, many of the affected owners now find themselves being financially penalised as JLR and its dealers harden their stance over who should pay for additional oil changes, DPF replacement and so forth. This will get worse as more cars develop problems reaching the end of the warranty period. This did not arise as the result of an unfortunate accident: the evidence suggests that it was planned in advance.

People were told one thing.....
Organism Font Circle Screenshot Number


….but not another. This crucial information was withheld to prevent customer sales objections:

View attachment 9557
View attachment 7162

The reason this happened is unique to the D8 diesels made by JLR from 2015 onwards. The obstructing bulkhead and 70 cm of pipework has no parallel in any other car from this or any other manufacturer - perhaps because most car manufacturers carefully measure the engine compartment before selecting an engine. JLR's engineers didn't suddenly discover that this problem existed in 2016, they would have fully understood the implications of the "challenged" exhaust system long before a single car had left the factory.

Arguably, engineering should have persuaded executive management to come clean and change the service intervals to 12,000 miles while they had the chance. But that would have deterred many buyers and maybe that's why they left it where it was. Doing this enabled them to sell more cars: I know one victim who stated categorically that they would not have bought a diesel DS had it not been for the perceived benefits of extended service intervals. There are hundreds of others who would say the same thing. JLR eventually did change the brochures but some dealer sales staff still fudged the issue if it came up or created innovative ways to secure sales.

Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006 outlines the risks for any person who makes a fraudulent representation with the intention of making a gain for themselves (or someone else) or exposes another person to the risk of loss. The attached paper from Burges-Salmon published in January 2016 explained how this legislation could easily have been used against VW for making money from fraudulent sales of polluting vehicles: "Volkswagen appears to have admitted making false representations to customers regarding the emissions of its vehicles and the vehicles' compliance with EU emissions standards. It is unlikely that prosecutors will struggle to establish that these false representations were made with the intention of making an economic gain. Prosecutors are also likely to be able to establish that the conduct was performed with the required state of mind. The maximum penalty for this offence is ten years in prison, a fine, or both."

Font Number Screenshot Circle Rectangle

A few months later the government announced no action would be taken against VW here in the UK, a story that was covered by The Guardian in July 2016*. Presumably the UK felt that there was little it could do that would add materially to the prosecution being undertaken by the German authorities: in June 2018 Reuters announced that a one billion Euro fine had been levied against VW for its "emissions cheating" activities.

* https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jul/15/government-is-letting-vw-off-the-hook-over-emissions-scandal-say-mps
 

Attachments

This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top