Cheat device EDC17

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Ian_S
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Re: EDC17: chickens coming home.

Post by Ian_S » Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:58 am

PhilMabbots17 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:39 pm
So all this time this probably wasn't a bad exhaust design at all. On the contrary maybe it was a rather clever and elegant exhaust design that could have worked brilliantly had it been strapped to a hot, efficient, diesel engine producing less HC/PM, with an oxidation catalyst that actually worked - and SCR and LP EGR systems that were turned down for the most part so that they didn't interfere overly with the otherwise immaculate operation of the system. Without the vital contribution of the acoustic function on the ECU, though, out in the real world such a system would instantly start exhibiting several tell-tale malfunctions.
I've said this for a while.

I think it is right that prosecutors are still chasing VW and hopefully Bosch. Before we blame JLR (and others) of just trying to con us, the scenario VW effectively created has skewed the entire diesel market. If you were not VW, you would have been scratching your head as to how they were able to produce such 'clean' diesel engines that you *had* to compete with. Cue Robert Bosch who could provide you with an ECU that could help... Both companies absolutely did it to increase their market share. VW group have benefited massively from diesel, and the whole scandal has made quite a few competitors exit the market completely. Sure diesel is now in decline, but I suspect VW group share of diesel hasn't dropped that much as outside of cities, it still makes sense to many, and that's a huge market in Europe.

JLR and others are effectively collateral damage in this as I suspect the likes of Bosch know JLR can't just name & shame them as they are now completely reliant on Bosch ECU's and changing that is not straightforward, so to turn whistleblower is unlikely. So Bosch have also benefited. Companies not using their ECU's, or not based in Europe where diesel matters, have given up as a result. So Bosch probably are more dominant in what remains of the diesel market too.

Sure, JLR have not handled this well, but I agree it seems highly unlikely that JLR's engineers are so bad that they could design an exhaust architecture for many models that simply did not work. So for me, the blame lies at VW/Bosch's door, as it's clear now that to properly meet EU6 emissions requires a lot of effort and reduced service intervals, higher DEF usage than initially expected, and probably (we're yet to find out) expensive repair bills to the emissions systems long before you would reasonably expect due to the stress they now seem to be under. The full impact of all this is not yet apparent. There could be a real lack of second hand diesel cars in 5-6 years as EU6 models become uneconomical to repair, and second hand values plummet.

If VW group offer incentives to existing customers to switch to their then new hybrid/EV models they will continue to retain market share built up fraudulently.
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PhilMabbots17
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Re: Cheat device EDC17

Post by PhilMabbots17 » Thu May 30, 2019 6:12 pm

Bosch fined $100 million for role in the diesel emissions scandal

Market Watch 23 May 2019

Prosecutors in Stuttgart said Thursday that the company, formally called Robert Bosch GmbH, was fined for a negligent violation of supervisory obligations, and that the company had decided not to appeal. Bosch delivered millions of engine control systems that were installed on various manufacturers’ cars starting in 2008 and whose software, in prosecutors’ words, “contained in part prohibited strategies” — leading to cars emitting more nitrogen oxide than permitted by regulators. However, prosecutors said they believe that “the initiative to integrate and shape the prohibited strategies came from employees of the auto manufacturers".

Not, though, from those employed at Jaguar Land Rover.
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DiscoSportDave
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Re: Cheat device EDC17

Post by DiscoSportDave » Thu May 30, 2019 6:27 pm

I understand BMW are preparing for a 1.4M euro fine, so Bosch got off lightly considering how many they have supplied across the patch
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Trojan
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Re: Cheat device EDC17

Post by Trojan » Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:44 pm

Interesting submission to the Government Transport Select Committee made by VW and Audi owners on the effects of running their EU5 and EU6 diesels after the EDC17 cheat software had been disabled. When this was written 49% of owners identified as "too distrustful" to have the VAG software update installed. The Slater and Gordon case, which now has 70,000 claimants, is due to be heard in the UK during December 2019. If this action is successful JLR should be next up for their dishonesty and organised campaign of misrepresentation over the D8 exhaust.

Faults.PNG

VEM0001-Volkswagen-Diesel-Customer-Forum.pdf
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Rediscovery
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Re: Cheat device EDC17

Post by Rediscovery » Sun Nov 17, 2019 6:17 pm

A bigger case is starting in Germany.

https://www.dw.com/en/german-class-action-lawsuit-over-vw-emissions-begins/a-50596406

German class action lawsuit over VW emissions begins
Four years after Volkswagen's Dieselgate scandal broke, more than 400,000 Germans are part of fresh legal action against the carmaker. But some lawyers warn against joining Germany's first-ever class action lawsuit.

According to the German Justice Ministry, some 446,000 plaintiffs have joined the class action lawsuit, which is jointly organized by the Federation of German Consumer Organizations (vzbv) and the country's largest motoring club, ADAC.

On Monday, the Braunschweig Higher Regional Court began hearing VW customers who are seeking refunds on the full purchase price of their car. In November 2018, Parliament paved the way for the introduction of the American-style legal framework into German law by adopting the so-called Musterfeststellungsklage, which translates into Model Declaratory Proceedings.

The decision was prompted by Volkswagen's diesel emissions manipulations unveiled in 2015 which are said to affect around 11 million cars around the world, 2.4 million of which were bought by Germans. But while consumers for example in the United States and Australia were able to pursue their claims of compensation collectively, affected VW customers here had been barred from this until 2018, and had to pursue their claims on an individual basis.

VW has been in hot water since US regulators showed in 2015 that the company had installed so-called defeat devices in its cars, enabling them to perform within emissions guidelines during testing, even if they emitted much higher levels of hazardous exhausts during normal driving conditions.

The cars bought by the plaintiffs range from Volkswagen's key brand VW to subsidiaries Audi, Seat and Skoda, and were all equipped with exhaust-gas manipulated diesel motors of the EA 189 type. VW has rejected the aim of the lawsuit, arguing that customers have no such claim because the cars remained perfectly functional. The carmaker has also repeatedly stressed that the software fixes it has offered have removed the problem of illegal emissions levels.

In a statement released on September 20, the vzbv consumer group said the sheer number of people signing up shows that the suit is important to them. It noted that the legal action has halted the statute of limitations for the claims of hundreds of thousands of VW diesel car owners. As a matter of fact, the new law allows people to be heard in court, who might otherwise have been afraid to do so due to financial concerns. Nevertheless, some lawyers are advising VW diesel owners to withdraw from the lawsuit and take individual action against the carmaker.
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Trojan
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Re: Cheat device EDC17

Post by Trojan » Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:08 pm

Trojan wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:44 pm
Interesting submission to the Government Transport Select Committee made by VW and Audi owners on the effects of running their EU5 and EU6 diesels after the EDC17 cheat software had been disabled. When this was written 49% of owners identified as "too distrustful" to have the VAG software update installed. The Slater and Gordon case, which now has 70,000 claimants, is due to be heard in the UK during December 2019. If this action is successful JLR should be next up for their dishonesty and organised campaign of misrepresentation over the D8 exhaust.

Faults.PNG


The leaflet from Boris arrived today so I was keen to see confirmation that I'll be able to go out and self-clean the DPF without the risk of arrest. Sadly, a quick scan of page 2 revealed that I can only go out for any of these... "Shopping for basic necessities.....One form of exercise a day...…Any medical need.....Travelling for work purposes...." - Where the hell is the special exception promised to all JLR Ingenium diesel owners: "One drive of 20 minutes between 40 mph and 70 mph is allowed to clear the faulty DPF?" I thought Prof Dr Herr Speth had influence for Christ's sake.

Meanwhile, as we sit around waiting for Trump, Putin, Kim Jong-un or Xi Jinping to start WW3, it was good to see that the first round in the VW cheating case has gone to the owners. From today's DT:
VW installed unlawful 'defeat devices' in millions of vehicles, High Court says in 'dieselgate' ruling

Volkswagen installed unlawful "defeat devices" in millions of vehicles, the High Court has said in the first major ruling over UK compensation claims following the "dieselgate" emissions scandal.

A judge sided with lawyers representing over 91,000 UK consumers who bought affected VW, Audi, Seat and Skoda diesel models, who argued that the devices "cheated" European emissions standards designed "to save lives". The devices programmed the cars to reduce harmful nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions when they sensed they were being tested by regulators. However, this meant the cars were then found to be emitting up to 40 times the legal limit of NOx when out on the road. The preliminary ruling was welcomed by solicitors as "a big step" towards consumers securing compensation from VW that could run into the hundreds of millions. VW said it is considering appealing against the judgment.

The Volkswagen Group announced in September 2015 that 11 million vehicles worldwide – including almost 1.2 million in the UK – were affected by the emissions devices following an investigation by US regulators. The disclosure prompted legal action in a number of countries around the world and has seen VW pay out more than £26 billion in fines, recall costs and civil settlements. It has also led to criminal charges by German prosecutors against current and former senior VW employees. The High Court ruling came after VW argued that the software installed in its vehicles had not constituted "defeat devices" under EU and UK law. In a judgment delivered remotely on Monday, Mr Justice Waksman ruled that "the software function in issue in this case is indeed a defeat device" under EU regulations. The judge said he was "far from alone in this conclusion", referring to "numerous courts and other bodies in various other jurisdictions [which] agree that the software function here is a defeat device".

He also said that "a software function which enables a vehicle to pass the test because [artificially] it operates the vehicle in a way which is bound to pass the test and in which it does not operate on the road is a fundamental subversion of the test and the objective behind it". However, the ruling does not prove VW's liability for the UK compensation claims that could see claimants receiving estimated payouts of up to £10,000 each, putting the potential final bill for VW at over £900 million. Gareth Pope, the head of group litigation at Slater and Gordon, which represents around 70,000 claimants, welcomed the "damning judgment", which he said "confirms what our clients have known for a long time, but which VW has refused to accept – namely that VW fitted defeat devices into millions of vehicles in the UK in order to cheat emissions tests". Tony Winterburn, a senior solicitor at SPG Law, which represents around 16,000 claimants, added: "It is an important step on the way to our clients getting the compensation that they deserve."

A spokesman for the Volkswagen Group said the company was "disappointed" by the ruling but that the issue of liability and any loss claimed by the complainants was yet to be determined. The spokesman said: "Volkswagen remains confident in our case that we are not liable to the claimants as alleged and the claimants did not suffer any loss. We will continue to defend our position robustly. Nothing in this decision today changes this. We look forward to making progress with defending the remainder of the case. "Volkswagen is considering carefully the grounds on which it may seek to appeal today's decision."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/0 ... cles-high/
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