Service Plan

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Re: Service Plan

Post by HmmmUK » Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:53 pm

Nickwill wrote:
Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:17 pm
Has anyone got anything in writing yet or got a link to anything official from JLR regarding the 4 interim oil changes?

In August 2016 a LR CRC rep. said they were getting a 'plan together' and: "Land Rover as a goodwill gesture will be contributing to the cost of the oil service."

I put the full quote in VDS' Diesel Dilution thread.
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Re: Service Plan

Post by VeryDiscoSport » Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:56 pm

simon wrote:
Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:40 pm
We should not need to do our own oil testing ! This is the 21st Century FFS !

The engine management system should test the oil accurately and request an oil change or the damn engine and DPF system, needs to be sorted so that it will safely run for the 21K miles it was designed to do between changes!

Of course, in an ideal world you would be right. But this is about dealing calmly and rationally with things we can change and not becoming flustered about things which are outside of our control. Should, would and ought are not legal terms. I would like not to have bought this car. I should not have bought it, if you like - but in the real world I did buy it and so for now I am stuck with it. Caveat emptor and all that.

If my car won't run for more than 3,000 miles before a laboratory test confirms that the oil has become too thin by virtue of diesel contamination and so full of wear metal deposits that it would be technically and scientifically unwise to continue using the vehicle without an immediate oil and oil filter change, one would have the makings of a case that the vehicle was not fit for purpose (especially if one could also prove that the vendor had claimed that the period between oil changes would be 700% longer). But such an assertion would be robustly challenged because of the wider implications, in which case a body of solid scientific evidence, backed by expert witness testimony, would be needed to stand any chance of winning. The other side simply couldn't afford to concede an argument of this type without a fight because the magnitude of the costs involved, were thousands of other owners suddenly to decide that thay had also been misled over servicing, could quickly consume all the current warranty provision on the balance sheet: in the past such things have proved capable of destroying companies altogether. If something like this is triggered, the fees that could be earned from a big legal action make it worthwhile for an entrepreneurial legal partnership to sponsor the case on a no-win-no-fee basis creating a group legal action, commonly referred to by the U.S. equivalent of a "class action".

I, for one, do not wish to become embroiled in a large legal action - but on the other hand I am not going to roll over and accept a vehicle that costs me any more money and time than I had budgeted for. I realised from the start - and I think the penny is starting to drop around here - that the current fix of a Service Warning light which is triggered by an estimated diesel dilution level of 6.1% could only ever be a coarse-grained, short-term, stop-gap measure designed to prevent mass engine failures. It is triggering service requests far too late in the dilution cycle but they couldn't set it much lower than they have because, at the rate that the cars are currently diluting the diesel with post-injection, the services would need to be done far too frequently, maybe as often as every 3000-4000 miles to totally avoid engine wear. At present I think we are all being expected to live with the compromise - a little risk of engine wear is being tolerated in return for service intervals which, whilst not what we were led to expect, aren't so bad as to ceate a mass panic. Yet. Having said that, I have just learned that Jaguar Land Rover has run out of Ingenium oil filters at this time (2.30pm 15th August) so maybe it has already started...

There is, hopefully, going to be a proper fix to this problem before too long but while we wait for it to be produced and announced I think it would be prudent to prepare for all eventualties. It is a case of jaw-jaw, but being totally prepared for the alternative. In gathering oil sample evidence myself, and encouraging others to do the same, I am not for one moment suggesting that this should be an ongoing, permanent feature of the life of a diesel DS owner. Just that it could prove to be a necessary and powerful weapon in the armoury if one has to fight ones way out of being a DS owner without losing more than is necessary. Simon, you have, I seem to recall, a very good opportunity to gather some evidence yourself in the near future; I respectfully urge you not to ignore it.
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Re: Service Plan

Post by simon » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:29 pm

Thanks VDS - eloquently put and makes my little rant seem a tad churlish now ;) I will of course ask for a sample to be taken when I take it in for a service at 20K. I have been assured my car will be fine until then. Once I have the test back I can use the result if I need to in order to claim against any premature engine wear.

BTW - if you don't mind me asking, what do you / did you do for a living ?

Cheers :)
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Re: Service Plan

Post by billdun » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:30 pm

I have been following this (and related threads) for a wee while now with mounting concern, having just sold an SUV from another manufacturer with a known serious engine problem. In this case some cars from the first couple of years of the production run were found to be prone to excessive oil consumption leading to HGF, blocked EGR and DPF. Early attempts by the dealer network to rebuild the units were less than successful and the only permanent fix was a new 3/4 engine. It is instructive that the manufacturer (who were early pioneers of TQM in automotive manufacture) quietly and without fuss increased the warranty for cars suffering from this problem from 3 to 7 years and 36k miles to 112k. What chance JLR doing the same to mitigate the reputational damage if the Ingenium engine starts to exhibit an increased frequency of catastrophic engine failure?
At the moment my 17MY has covered just over 5k mostly rural miles and appears to be eating service miles at a ratio of 5:1. At this rate an oil change will be needed at 7-8 k. It looks if the car might need two interim oil changes. I will, as a matter of course, have the oil analysed when it is changed and post the results. I did note that most of the analyses posted already were at low mileages, possibly the first oil change. Is it conceivable that the high wear metals shown are a result of a "bedding in process"? It will be interesting to see if the levels come down as the mileage increases.
Many thanks to VDS for his hard work and tenacity in investigating this problem, I just wish I had done my usual "due diligence" before parting with my cash.
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Re: Service Plan

Post by PedroT » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:01 pm

What alternative system do other manufacturers have to regenerate the DPF that prevents them being in an identical position to LR, i.e. Diesel being squirted in to burn off carbon? Do others do it differently?
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Re: Service Plan

Post by Barnsh » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:09 pm

Woolmeister wrote:
Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:40 pm
Barnsh wrote:
Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:10 pm
I suppose anyone buying the car before June 2017 on the auspices it needed an oil change or service every 21000 miles can reject it .

I contacted my supplying dealership on Friday, copying the "Land Rover Customer Relationship Centre", citing oil dilution as a reason for rejection alone, Barnsh. I honestly feel as though I've been miss-sold this car on the basis of long (21,000 mile) service intervals. Even today, I still wish I had my old Discovery 3 back (without DAB radio as well). At least I could change the oil and filter myself every 5,000 miles, without screwing-up some retarded oil condition algorithm. I await their response to my email.

My car will have done ~45,000 miles when it comes to the end of the PCP (if it lasts that long). I won't be buying it and goodwill oil changes will only be good up to 50,000 miles, after which, I'm on my own. It's unlikely at this stage that I will buy another Land Rover vehicle.

"Driving style" was cited as my primary reason for dissatisfaction for the gearbox issues I've experienced. Apparently, I'm "driving it wrong". If they cite my driving style to me one more time, I will set-up a website highlighting this problem - and others - so that all modern Land Rover owners can see and learn from my experience of buying a Discovery Sport.

It's a shocker of a car, it really is. In the last few years Land Rover have completely lost sight of the traditional values of the vehicles they once produced. These are now vehicles that are more at home in the Waitrose Car Park than they are in the great outdoors. It's a lifestyle brand that builds very average vehicles (possibly with the exception of the FFRR) and it saddens me to see them going in this direction. I'm sure they will continue to sell like hot cakes to those who buy into the lifestyle; hopefully more educated buyers will see through the marketing blurb and see greater merit in the other leading European brands like Volvo (hugely progressive lately, especially with regards electric/hybrid vehicles), Audi, BMW, Merc, and Skoda.

Yep I thought I'd made a good choice but 2 rejections down the road I don't ever want to buy another landrover.
Love the concept , love the design , but hate the sh1t that goes with owning one.

Decisions , decisions , Audi Q5 Tfsi or XC60 T5 mmmmm.
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Re: Service Plan

Post by simon » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:12 pm

The Volvo. Much better looking car than the Audi.
There are far better forums to be welcomed at than this one that locks threads because certain members can’t take a bit of criticism :roll:

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Re: Service Plan

Post by Chippy » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:40 pm

simon wrote:
Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:12 pm
The Volvo. Much better looking car than the Audi.
The new Volvo was very well received by the German Auto Motor and Sport Magazine. The only thing they really critised was the illogical multi media system but that's something I wouldn't care about it I was interested which I'm not ;)
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Re: Service Plan

Post by simon » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:39 pm

It can't be more illogical than a LR interface surely ?
There are far better forums to be welcomed at than this one that locks threads because certain members can’t take a bit of criticism :roll:

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Re: Service Plan

Post by hotfrog » Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:12 pm

I have read this thread with a great deal of interest.

Surely if the car gets itself into a situation whereby JLR say that it should not be driven due to the condition of the engine oil then it is prima facie a warranty issue for JLR to fix. The car was not designed to leak fuel into the engine oil so it is a defect. If it regenerates the DPF at say 70mph then presumably the pistons / cylinders are lubricated almost entirely by fuel for the duration of the regen cycle, say for 10 minutes. No engine designer would build that feature, so is it just for expedience? Maybe someone with knowledge of the cars inner workings could comment on this. It all sounds like an engineering time bomb.

Supposing a gasket failure allowed water into the oil, is the situation really any different? Today, I smelt the engine through the oil filler and there was a distinct paraffin type of odour. My car has done 4150 miles from new and is showing that it will need an oil service in another 9650 miles. My usage includes some shopping but about 250 miles of A road / Motorway on each tankful. I have only once been aware of a DPF regeneration cycle since new but I am sure there must have been others.

I had a Ford S-Max and a SEAT Alhambra before the DS and experienced no DPF issues with either car. I followed their respective forums during my ownership. Although VW / SEAT have had a hard time over environmental issues I can only say that it ran perfectly during my ownership and in particular started on the coldest days cleanly with no smoke or paraffin smell as was common withe Ford when very very cold.
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