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New DS? Dilemma re oil dilution etc

35K views 87 replies 29 participants last post by  Ian_S 
#1 Ā·
I have been thinking about getting the new DS (never had a JLR vehicle before!) . Seriously concerned though re what I have read re oil dilution problems and general reliability! I am a low mileage driver under 7000 miles per year. I currently have an XC60 2.4 diesel and have never had any problems at all. Is it only the D180 engine that is effected? I suspect it may be a safer bet to go for the petrol engine? Anyone know whether that's any good? Maybe I should go with my other option which would be the new Mercedes GLC! Interested to hear opinions. Thanks.
 
#3 Ā·
Hi -

Well, given that JLR have known about the oil dilution issue for a good 3 years, probably more, you would hope that with the new DS (and Evoque) being on a new platform that they would have finally fixed it. However, only time is going to tell on that one with Evoque owners likely to be amongst the first to notice, especially as LR are heavily advertising it for use in the City, so short trips, stuck in traffic....

Petrol engines have been fine, and general build quality seems to have improved over time, so one would hope that carries through to the new DS, but until it arrives you just don't know. The interior quality of the new Evoque looks very good and feels very nice, so there is some hope there. Maybe worth taking a good look around the Evoque in the showroom to see what you think. I suspect DS will be very similar inside. certainly looks that way from the photos.
 
#4 Ā·
A petrol DS is your best bet - even if the oil dilution issue is fixed, it will still be actively regenerating more frequently at low mileages (using diesel to burn off the soot).

Most Euro6 diesels will have the need to regenerate, your XC-60 was probably Euro5 where this wasn't an issue, as with the old Euro5 2.2 DS engine.
 
#5 Ā·
Hi Peternb..

I appreciate where you're coming from as a previous DS owner (and now a new XC60 owner I may be biased) my thoughts only...

DO you need the full capabilities of the DS 4WD system and will you use it to it's fullest? If not there are many alternates. After rejecting 2x DS's I had a big rethink about "what I wanted" and settled for maybe a "lesser capability 4WD system", after all I was never going to cross deserts or climb serious mountains. I'm also sure that the new XC60 may have some issues (hard to find serious issues) as it's a relatively new model, but most of the systems it uses are proven as they are shared on other models. I looked at everything as I knew my 2nd reject was imminent so I did lots of looking and test driving, you name I drove it! I settled on the Volvo (my first) as it ticked all my boxes.

If you really want a DS I'm sure you could be happy but my thoughts would steer you away from any diesel version as a starting point, also remember that what's standard in some competitors are expensive options on the DS (and some others), another reason I went for the current XC60. Audi, Merc and BMW seem to have the highest prices for options around! Some of the others Skoda, VW, KIA, Hyundai and even Jeep seem to be not as bad price wise. I didn't look at Alfa as they hadn't been released when I looked so can't really comment on them. I suggest you drive them, it's your hard earned that's going to be shelled out so spend it wisely.

Many have stated on here that the F-Pace diesels seem NOT to have the DPF issues as their systems are different I think, others may know more about this. From comments it seems they are NOT plagued with the same issues and have better build quality (and a bigger cost maybe). If it was me and again I must stress it's my opinion only, I had a nasty experience with JLR ( CRC in Aust and UK and how they handled things) but NOT my dealer who was great.. I wouldn't ever touch a JLR product again (shame as all my expectations were shattered) unless I won it and then I'd seriously consider selling it straight away!

I do wish you luck with whatever you choose and I also understand that there are many DS owners that are very happy with their cars and they are not really as vocal on the forum as those with issues. You mention your "trouble free Volvo Xc60..." doesn't that tell you something?

Cheers
 
#6 Ā·
s5156 said:
Hi Peternb..

I appreciate where you're coming from as a previous DS owner (and now a new XC60 owner I may be biased) my thoughts only...

DO you need the full capabilities of the DS 4WD system and will you use it to it's fullest? If not there are many alternates. After rejecting 2x DS's I had a big rethink about "what I wanted" and settled for maybe a "lesser capability 4WD system", after all I was never going to cross deserts or climb serious mountains. I'm also sure that the new XC60 may have some issues (hard to find serious issues) as it's a relatively new model, but most of the systems it uses are proven as they are shared on other models. I looked at everything as I knew my 2nd reject was imminent so I did lots of looking and test driving, you name I drove it! I settled on the Volvo (my first) as it ticked all my boxes.

If you really want a DS I'm sure you could be happy but my thoughts would steer you away from any diesel version as a starting point, also remember that what's standard in some competitors are expensive options on the DS (and some others), another reason I went for the current XC60. Audi, Merc and BMW seem to have the highest prices for options around! Some of the others Skoda, VW, KIA, Hyundai and even Jeep seem to be not as bad price wise. I didn't look at Alfa as they hadn't been released when I looked so can't really comment on them. I suggest you drive them, it's your hard earned that's going to be shelled out so spend it wisely.

Many have stated on here that the F-Pace diesels seem NOT to have the DPF issues as their systems are different I think, others may know more about this. From comments it seems they are NOT plagued with the same issues and have better build quality (and a bigger cost maybe). If it was me and again I must stress it's my opinion only, I had a nasty experience with JLR ( CRC in Aust and UK and how they handled things) but NOT my dealer who was great.. I wouldn't ever touch a JLR product again (shame as all my expectations were shattered) unless I won it and then I'd seriously consider selling it straight away!

I do wish you luck with whatever you choose and I also understand that there are many DS owners that are very happy with their cars and they are not really as vocal on the forum as those with issues. You mention your "trouble free Volvo Xc60..." doesn't that tell you something?

Cheers
Thanks for your post.
I did initially think of going for another Volvo XC60, but little things annoyed me like no wireless charging capability for example, no ambient/mood lighting etc. Shallow I know but if spending a lot of money on a new car I want it to have those things! I was attracted to the new technology on the new DS , clear sight , etc and the fact that the screens are integrated into the dash rather than looking like they are an after thought!
 
G
#7 Ā·
Just so you are aware. my delaer told me they don't expect to see a new DS, even a showroom example until August - doesn't help you with your decision if you can't go and prod / test the quality of materials.
 
#8 Ā·
I agree that for low mileage, petrol engine is best suited. However, as a current D180 owner and traded in a 3-yr old D180 last year with 60k miles on the clock, I have never had oil dilution. In fact very slight oil consumption is detectable on the dipstick at 12k miles on this one.

Another important factor is how you drive in your 7k a year. My mileage is a mix of short and long journeys so mine regularly gets the chance to self regenerate at high exhaust temps and does not over fuel too often . That's my theory.
 
#9 Ā·
The big question is how long you usually keep your new car, if it is only 3 or 4 years the oil dilution is not really going to be an issue as any issues will be covered by the warranty/a 12 months extended warranty. As far as buying a petrol DS, do LR actually sell any in the UK, as I've never seen any advertised for sale and who is going to buy it secondhand unless the market has really gone 100% anti diesel when you come to sell it?
 
#10 Ā·
DroitwichGas said:
The big question is how long you usually keep your new car, if it is only 3 or 4 years the oil dilution is not really going to be an issue as any issues will be covered by the warranty/a 12 months extended warranty. As far as buying a petrol DS, do LR actually sell any in the UK, as I've never seen any advertised for sale and who is going to buy it secondhand unless the market has really gone 100% anti diesel when you come to sell it?
Errrr, yes they do I'm looking at one. Plus look on Autotrader, 88 for sale in UK. Who's going to buy them secondhand - same kind of people who are buying them new I guess.
 
#11 Ā·
Well I have had my petrol DS for 18 months! They certainly sell them here in UK. I do 7000 miles per year and decided the petrol was for me. It has been very good so far - petrol engine is excellent.
 
G
#12 Ā·
There are plenty of petrol evoques, and I would imagine the next DS will see plenty of petrol sales once the hybrid tech comes into force ( saw another camouflaged DS hybrid on the commute this evening btw !). For those with low miles who can stomach mid to high 20s mpg then they have their place. For those on PCP type sales they may not be as desirable due to the future vale impacting on the monthly costs, but hybrid should again make that more palatable.

Whether LR have enough hybrid built into the new DS is debatable, it's a heavy vehicle with plenty of traditional off road values that they probably feel they need to honour.

Whilst I can't say i'm Too impressed with the 39mpg from my 700 mile old 180TD DS I can console myself that had I bought a petrol I'd probably be getting 28mpg and have worse resale value (in current market)

There's plenty of bad press for the DS , and rightly so for those early adopters who have discovered it's not quite the technical marvel it should have been. Dig deep enough on any car related forum and there are plenty of issues to find. Read any mid naughtiest Porsche forum and people say the engines implode, I've not had a single fault or jiggle or buzz from mine in 13 years !
 
#13 Ā·
Can I add to the suggestions that mileage is not the issue with oil dilution - its your driving style and typical length and speed of journeys. I am doing less than 5000 miles a year and after 20 months no problems yet. I did change oil and filter at the 12 months point as a precaution. I do not use the car for short journeys unless I need to carry large objects or passengers. I use maximum sensible speed on motorways and drive with some spirit on other roads. Which means both speeding up and slowing down according to visibility and potential hazards not dawdling but not being afraid to use throttle and brakes to make progress safely. This is returning just under 37 mpg. Leaving aside the auto gearbox issues the dynamic behaviour of the vehicle does justify the 'Sport' label much better than I expected but if that aspect of driving does not interest you then the DS probably won't suit your driving style.
 
#14 Ā·
Interesting reply roadster, I have had my DS since March and daily drive can be around 80 miles mixed motorway and A roads, not always flat out speed but not dawdling along and to date I think I am noticing when a regen is taking place but seems to complete whilst cruising along and never yet actually stopped the car and got out to hear any frantic ticking noises cooling down or any unusual hot smells which gives me a bit of peace thinking that the regen is happening at a steady 65-70 during the 1 hour plus drive each way. Have driven diesels all my life but this is my first LR and I am aware the design of the exhaust is supposed to be not ideal leading to issues so I am going into this with an open mind but to date car is great and is driven slightly on the harder side which may be helping but only time will tell I suppose
 
#15 Ā·
The ECU in the diesel DS will be coded to perform an active regeneration based on soot loading or mileage. The mileage limit is 250 miles. I think there may be a minimum fuel requirement as well for an active regen to be able to start.

If you do lots of short journeys then you may well hit the soot loading first, but where the 250 mile counter kicks in is anyone's guess. You could be unlucky and have it start just as your lovely long journey ends :)

The best gauge for whether or not an active regeneration may be in progress is the stop/start system. The engine will not stop during an active regeneration. Obviously this assumes your stop/start system works regularly.
 
#16 Ā·
Gary s said:
I am aware the design of the exhaust is supposed to be not ideal leading to issues so I am going into this with an open mind but to date car is great and is driven slightly on the harder side which may be helping but only time will tell I suppose
I believe the highlighted phrase explains why some cars do better than others in this regard. We know from JLR's candid disclosure that during "normal" driving the DOC is ineffective and all the soot has to be collected in the SCRF(DPF) box. This leads to a requirement for more frequent active regeneration events and then, due to the architecture, each regeneration lasts longer which increases the risk of an interruption. The price to be paid for an incomplete regeneration is additional DPF warm up time the next time the engine is started. "More frequent" and "longer" periods of post injection are referred to in the SCN and that, I think, completes the narrative of why it occurs. How it affects ownership of the car depends on driving style - and there are broadly three styles to consider:

1. Driving "hard" reduces the frequency of regeneration events because it lights up the DOC to some extent and therefore less HC/PM arrives to be collected in the SCRF(DPF). Based on an analysis of forum contributions, a pre-N289 car driven in this fashion will reach 12,000+ miles before the diesel dilution reaches the safe level of 6%. For these drivers, an increase to 20,000 miles can be expected before the service message appears once N289 has been loaded.

2. The problem is amplified by calmer driving styles and respect for national speed limits. For this type of driving it doesn't make any difference whether journeys are 45 minutes long or 4 hours long because driving sensibly/economically (what JLR referred to as "normal" or "typical" driving) never lights up the DOC. Ever. With this driving style owners can expect 6,000 to 8,000 miles between pre-N289 oil changes, 10,000 to 14,000 miles after the update.

3. The problem becomes super-critical when journeys are regularly sub-45 minutes. Now the owner will be lucky to make 4,000-5,000 miles between oil changes. But that's not the worst problem - because now the DPF will start to regularly clog with soot and amber/red DPF lights will appear. It will have to be "coaxed" into regenerating. But eventually most of these cars will need a new DPF and so for them N289 assumes all the utility of a chocolate tea-pot.

So how many diesels in each category? Sticking a finger in the air having looked through our various surveys I would say the distribution has a "classic" normal distribution curve - about 10-80-10.

It's clear that 80-90% of drivers have the wrong driving style, just as JLR have been saying.

But is that the driver's fault? Or the manufacturer's ...?
 
#17 Ā·
Can't agree with some of the above.

You do not need to have a journey time of at least 45 mins to get better than 6,000 to 8,000 miles between oil changes. My journey's are mostly 30 mins in duration and I managed to get around 13,500 miles before hitting 6%.

Driving hard doesn't mean a lack of respect for speed limits. You are allowed the take the car out of automatic mode to increase the engine rev's instead of just pressing the loud pedal harder to achieve the same thing. 7th gear on the 9-speed auto will keep you above 2,000 rpm without destroying fuel economy completely. It also reduces 'lugging' which is especially prevalent in top gear cruising on a motorway and is compounded further if you then only ever gently accelerate to overtake from say 65-70 as the gearbox may not change down. This style of driving can increase soot generation. You can also accelerate more quickly generating load than always accelerating gently (also helps the auto box realise it needs to change down quicker). It's debatable whether getting up to speed quickly and then maintaining speed is better than taking ages to get there in the first place.
 
#18 Ā·
Interesting last few posts, I (crossing fingers) seem to get almost to the 20/21K (post N...update) , with a very mixed driving style , I wonder as mine is manual,if generaly the revs are higher than an auto (i dont like changing straight up to the highest gear as a bit of engine control feels better)

Does anyone know if they have improved the set up on the 2020 model (or the new Evoke as thats now out?

Nick
 
#21 Ā·
Ian_S said:
Can't agree with some of the above.

You do not need to have a journey time of at least 45 mins to get better than 6,000 to 8,000 miles between oil changes. My journey's are mostly 30 mins in duration and I managed to get around 13,500 miles before hitting 6%.

Driving hard doesn't mean a lack of respect for speed limits. You are allowed the take the car out of automatic mode to increase the engine rev's instead of just pressing the loud pedal harder to achieve the same thing. 7th gear on the 9-speed auto will keep you above 2,000 rpm without destroying fuel economy completely. It also reduces 'lugging' which is especially prevalent in top gear cruising on a motorway and is compounded further if you then only ever gently accelerate to overtake from say 65-70 as the gearbox may not change down. This style of driving can increase soot generation. You can also accelerate more quickly generating load than always accelerating gently (also helps the auto box realise it needs to change down quicker). It's debatable whether getting up to speed quickly and then maintaining speed is better than taking ages to get there in the first place.
Ian, do you deliberately apply some or all of the driving techniques described in your second paragraph? Do you include one journey of at least an hour every 200 miles or so? If you are doing neither of these things, then you are very lucky to be getting < 0.5% dilution / 1,000 miles on journeys of 30 minutes. In October 2017 even the manufacturer didn't think that that was possible. The following timings are based on the manufacturer's definition of "normal" driving for this model and draw on i) the letter from JLR Executive Office; ii) dealer comments attributed to a named JLR powertrain engineer; and iii) the May 2015 DPF Operation Manual.

10 minutes driving from cold is required to get the whole system up to operating temperature. During the warm-up period it's normal ignition, LP EGR Valve Open, no post-injection, no DOC light up.
10 minutes initial post injection with retarded ignition to light up the DOC and increase the temperature at the front face of the DPF to 580 deg C. (source: JLR powertrain engineer and LR DPF Ops Manual p1)
15-20 minutes post-injection to maintain the oxidation temperature to dispose of all HC/PM particles within the DPF. (source: LR DPF Ops Manual p 1)

Total 35-40 minutes.

View attachment 7162

My journeys were generally all over 30 minutes and included regular back-to-back 90-120 minute commutes on trunk roads and motorways, avoiding aggressive acceleration (it's not Milan after all) and complying with national speed limits (that's true GPS speeds, i.e. indicated 75 on a M-way). When they sold it to me with a written promise of servicing costs limited to about Ā£500 every two years, no-one mentioned that I was expected to over-rev the engine, delay gear changes, accelerate hard or perform over-take manoeuvres like Lewis Hamilton. As I remember, it was quite the opposite because the car used to chivvy me into changing up earlier than I would normally have done with a little symbol on the IC (mine was a humble 6-speed manual).

This "normal" driving style earned me a dilution rate of 1% per 1,000 miles give or take and I think the posts on here prove that I was not alone. As I have demonstrated, the average distance to an oil change is actually only 8,300 miles.

[IMG=https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/download/file.php?id=9106][/IMG]
 

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#22 Ā·
Ian_S said:
You are allowed the take the car out of automatic mode to increase the engine rev's instead of just pressing the loud pedal harder to achieve the same thing. 7th gear on the 9-speed auto will keep you above 2,000 rpm without destroying fuel economy completely. It also reduces 'lugging' which is especially prevalent in top gear cruising on a motorway and is compounded further if you then only ever gently accelerate to overtake from say 65-70 as the gearbox may not change down. This style of driving can increase soot generation. You can also accelerate more quickly generating load than always accelerating gently (also helps the auto box realise it needs to change down quicker). It's debatable whether getting up to speed quickly and then maintaining speed is better than taking ages to get there in the first place.
A JLR service agent gave similar advice to my friend and said that to prevent the amber DPF light illuminating on her Evoque she has to drive somewhere - whether she needs to go out or not. Other JLR owners have even been told to change their daily commute to avoid motorways and stick to B roads. Practically everyone who has challenged their dealer about this has been told to change their driving style. They don't even crack a smile.

It's 2019 - I get in my car when I want, I push a button to get it started and then I drive it how I see fit. Compared to EV/hybrid technology this might as well be a 21st century steam car: "Performing a regen took about 30 to 35 minutes unless you were really good at it. The main trick was to keep the right amount of power with a proper speed going up and down hills. With that 30 minute minimum journey time I can see why diesel cars weren't a big hit." :lol:

 
#23 Ā·
Ian, I've looked at my original post and believe I should have put it like this:

3. The problem becomes super-critical when journeys are exclusively sub-30 minutes. Now the owner will be lucky to make 4,000-5,000 miles between oil changes. But that's not the worst problem - because now the DPF will start to regularly clog with soot and amber/red DPF lights will appear....
 
#24 Ā·
VeryDiscoSport said:
Ian, do you deliberately apply some or all of the driving techniques described in your second paragraph? Do you include one journey of at least an hour every 200 miles or so? If you are doing neither of these things, then you are very lucky to be getting < 0.5% dilution / 1,000 miles on journeys of 30 minutes. In October 2017 even the manufacturer didn't think that that was possible. The following timings are based on the manufacturer's definition of "normal" driving for this model and draw on i) the letter from JLR Executive Office; ii) dealer comments attributed to a named JLR powertrain engineer; and iii) the May 2015 DPF Operation Manual.

10 minutes driving from cold is required to get the whole system up to operating temperature. During the warm-up period it's normal ignition, LP EGR Valve Open, no post-injection, no DOC light up.
10 minutes initial post injection with retarded ignition to light up the DOC and increase the temperature at the front face of the DPF to 580 deg C. (source: JLR powertrain engineer and LR DPF Ops Manual p1)
15-20 minutes post-injection to maintain the oxidation temperature to dispose of all HC/PM particles within the DPF. (source: LR DPF Ops Manual p 1)

Total 35-40 minutes.
I can't say I deliberately apply all of them, but I don't drive for economy, and personally I would say the DS is tuned in it's behaviour for economy. 9th gear on a dual carriageway or motorway is not in the engines sweet spot, so I will almost always use the paddles to drop a gear if I need to accelerate. I probably use the paddles in D mode quite a bit and if I'm on a nice country road will also take more charge. I think that's just a by product of forming that habit in my other car which is more tuned for performance, but the way in which you can operate the two is the same.

As for the timings, those are going to be general rather than absolute. The user manual states going for a drive at over 40mph, which isn't actually very fast and might not be at high engine revs either. So you would expect that the regeneration algorithm in the ECU attempts to complete an active regeneration in a wide range of circumstances and that the timings also reflect that wider range.

So for example, if you drive economically, following the change up guides, accelerating gently etc, you may well actually be triggering the regeneration all the time because of soot loading reaching the threshold instead of hitting the 250 mile threshold. In your case I recall your average distance for the last five regions was just over 203 miles. This means your active regeneration always had the triggered soot loading to remove, so would alway also be at the longer end of the time required to burn it off.

I guess it's possible that if your driving style doesn't hit the soot loading threshold and instead you just hit the 250 miles trigger, then the regenerations will occur both less frequently and also take less time to burn off the soot as there is less to burn. The ECU will stop the regeneration when the soot loading is back down to a low level, there's no point burning past that point.

I would also question 10 minutes for a car to 'warm up', what defines reaching mortal operating temperature? Oil temp? Coolant temp? EGR temp? If you get straight onto a dual carriageway a car will warm up a lot faster than one that initially sits in traffic.

There has to be some truth in this as we do see differing behaviour, but nowhere near enough to suggest the whole thing is just driving style. That's just BS. And yes you should just be able to use the car the way you want, which luckily so far I can. It's just very difficult I think to give exact advice on whether your intended usage and driving habits will or won't suit the DS. It's a gamble, which is a shame.
 
#26 Ā·
I had an XC60 D5 AWD loved it
Changed to a DS see signature for history.

After 2 B pillar tickers , I wasn't going to take the chance on another B pillar ticker!
At the time of changing the last DS, it was in for its annual service , ( I always get an annual service and oil change done at 7000 to 9000 miles, ) it's non sensible to run a diesel for 2 years or 21k miles without a service in any diesel let alone a DS.

It was registering fuel dilution of 5% when it went in ( checked by millers oil sample) .
My "driving style " NO trips less than 40 mins all trips driven like I stole it.

It was pretty obvious to me the DS was not going to be a keeper .

Note the XC60 would quite happily run short trips with no DPF or oil dilution issues whilst serviced annually .
It out accelerated the DS massively , it didn't hesitate at junctions either.

I would have bought a petrol DS , but at the time the. B pillar issue was not yet resolved.

So I tried out an FPace ,
Rest is history
Far better engine than the diesel , and as you'll notice no complaints on here about the petrol at all, petrol owners have in fact sailed off into oblivion with a big smile on their faces.

I didn't need 7 seats so the FPace did me fine.
It goes like stink
It's nailed to the road

My suggestion;

Take the petrol DS out for a test back to back with the DS diesel
Take an FPace diesel out back to back with the petrol FPace.

One thing you will notice , the gearbox in the FPace is a ZF8 not the awful hesitant ZF9 that you need " to learn to drive "

In a nutshell
The old XC60 is a very forgiving car as it didn't have to meet new EU6 standards, don't fall into the trap I did by thinking " I've had a diesel, it will be fine".

Having driven diesels for 40 odd years , it's a pleasant surprise to go back to petrol , they free Rev throughout the range with constant pulling power there is no narrow band or "peaky " engine issues.

Oh and there are still far too few D240 owners on here to get a clear view of no dilution issues.

No one can tell you what to buy , it's your money, spend it wisely but please take them all out for a LONG test drive first. NOT 30 mins, get the car for a day and do your usual routes.

I've lost count of the vociferous "I've had my car (less than 6 months ) and there's nothing wrong with it " folks, We've all been one of them at first. We all loved our cars at first .......give it time and look at the owners who have had theirs over 2/3 years. There will be a few who work round the problems and are happy, that's fine, there will be a few who expect better and jumped ship.

Best of luck with your choice

If it was mine .....get a petrol then you can come back on here and just read about diesel problems šŸ˜‚šŸ˜‚
 
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