Newbies Should Read This

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Dashnine
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Re: Newbies Should Read This

Post by Dashnine » Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:53 pm

I guess they key question is why do you feel 6% ‘safe’ and 10% isn’t?
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Re: Newbies Should Read This

Post by Trojan » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:16 am

Dashnine wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:53 pm
I guess they key question is why do you feel 6% ‘safe’ and 10% isn’t?
Actually I would prefer no diesel dilution but this is the cost of driving a diesel in 2019. 6% has been used on the XE since 2015 and that car doesn't need N289 because, unlike the DS, it actually works as designed and advertised. The SCN said more than 6% FIO risked engine failure. Going to 10% is a compromise commercial decision - high enough to avoid a few more early oil changes, but not high enough to cause JLR to run out of replacement engines. Any fool knows that increasing oil dilution erodes the MTBF margins - I just don't want mine eroded any further than they are already.

I hear fuel in oil dilution is practically zero on a petrol. :D

SIM Message.PNG

Last edited by Trojan on Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Newbies Should Read This

Post by Trojan » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:39 am

With all due respect to the OP, the list should now read.

Since September 2015, when deliveries of Ingenium diesels began, JLR has:

1) delivered cars that concealed the problem from owners due to faulty "software";
2) denied the existence of the problem when it surfaced, allowing dealers to reset service counters and skip vital oil changes;
3) blamed the high oil dilution on a variety of factors, most of which boiled down to "software";
4) blamed "driving style" when they could no longer get away with blaming "software";
5) admitting in a leaked document that the problem is real and caused by the exhaust architecture and hardware;
6) admitted in the same document to changing marketing materials to deflect future customer dissatisfaction;
7) admitted in another document that, actually, the DS IS more heavily affected by Dilution and DPF blockage due to the longer distance from the engine to the DPF;
8) told dealers to advise certain customers to steer away from the diesel DS altogether to minimise their risk of experiencing oil dilution or a blocked DPF (these customers would apparently be OK if they bought an XE, according to JLR);
9) changed the dilution trigger from 6% to 10% to squeeze out 66% more miles between oil changes; and
10) termed this erosion of failure margins a "software enhancement". :lol: :lol: :lol:

I've paid to watch less entertaining circuses.
CRC@LandRover wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:57 pm


I can confirm that Land Rover are currently working on a software enhancement in regards to the concerns that have been raised.

Unfortunately at this time, we have not been provided with an update as to when this will be released.

Once I have received further information I will arrange for the details to be posted in this forum.

I apologise for any inconvenience that this may cause.

Thanks,
Becci
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Re: Newbies Should Read This

Post by Dashnine » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:23 am

Trojan wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:16 am
Dashnine wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:53 pm
I guess they key question is why do you feel 6% ‘safe’ and 10% isn’t?
Actually I would prefer no diesel dilution but this is the cost of driving a diesel in 2019. 6% has been used on the XE since 2015 and that car doesn't need N289 because, unlike the DS, it actually works as designed and advertised. The SCN said more than 6% FIO risked engine failure. Going to 10% is a compromise commercial decision - high enough to avoid a few more early oil changes, but not high enough to cause JLR to run out of replacement engines. Any fool knows that increasing oil dilution erodes the MTBF margins - I just don't want mine eroded any further than they are already.

I hear fuel in oil dilution is practically zero on a petrol. :D

SIM Message.PNG
The point I was trying to make (badly), is that the same people who said 6% was safe are now saying 10% is safe. Is this a financially led increase, or an Engineering led increase.

And yes, I'm hoping for low levels of oil dilution on my P240.....
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Re: Newbies Should Read This

Post by Trojan » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:35 am

I think we might apply Occams Razor to understand why Engineering looked for a solution for 2 to 3 years then apparently gave up and instead made a software change that has the effect of hiding the problem, disingenuously terming this a "software enhancement". How is this an enhancement except in a virtual, pretend world?

Put yourself in JLR's position for a minute. Sales of DS and Evoque models were down by a third when this (N289) was done and dealers had been warned not to sell these cars to a broad swathe of potential buyers because of known issues with diesel dilution and DPF clogging. The dilution problem, according to another JLR document, affects three specific models, two of which happen to be the compay's best sellers. From an engineering perspective it was known that the problem is insoluble without a hardware modification. The oil changes were costing them a small fortune and people were successfully rejecting cars on the basis of this problem. Diesel already had a bad reputation following VW while EU6 diesels make people doubly sensitive about DPF and oil dilution issues. Combine these commercial pressures with a need to make $2.5 billion of cost savings and a cynical software change might have been seen as the quickest and cheapest way out of a choke hold. Anyway, why stop after one lie? Remind me again why this came about on the DS/Evoque and not the XE?

Ah, yes, neck ties. People who know what went on will tell you off the record that Design refused to give Engineering the space they needed to fit the XE DPF behind the transverse Ingenium engine. That decision was, as we know, the single root cause behind all these problems. Now, who was it that made the decisions back then? Who reported to whom? So who ultimately signs off the engineering decisions today?

Well feck me. Once I stopped looking at the trees I suddenly became aware of the forest.
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Re: Newbies Should Read This

Post by PaulCP » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:25 pm

Trojan wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:39 am
With all due respect to the OP, the list should now read.

Since September 2015, when deliveries of Ingenium diesels began, JLR has:

1) delivered cars that concealed the problem from owners due to faulty "software";
2) denied the existence of the problem when it surfaced, allowing dealers to reset service counters and skip vital oil changes;
3) blamed the high oil dilution on a variety of factors, most of which boiled down to "software";
4) blamed "driving style" when they could no longer get away with blaming "software";
5) admitting in a leaked document that the problem is real and caused by the exhaust architecture and hardware;
6) admitted in the same document to changing marketing materials to deflect future customer dissatisfaction;
7) admitted in another document that, actually, the DS IS more heavily affected by Dilution and DPF blockage due to the longer distance from the engine to the DPF;
8) told dealers to advise certain customers to steer away from the diesel DS altogether to minimise their risk of experiencing oil dilution or a blocked DPF (these customers would apparently be OK if they bought an XE, according to JLR);
9) changed the dilution trigger from 6% to 10% to squeeze out 66% more miles between oil changes; and
10) termed this erosion of failure margins a "software enhancement". :lol: :lol: :lol:

I've paid to watch less entertaining circuses.
CRC@LandRover wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:57 pm


I can confirm that Land Rover are currently working on a software enhancement in regards to the concerns that have been raised.

Unfortunately at this time, we have not been provided with an update as to when this will be released.

Once I have received further information I will arrange for the details to be posted in this forum.

I apologise for any inconvenience that this may cause.

Thanks,
Becci
Sums it up perfectly 👍

A decent car spoiled by corporate greed and corporate contempt for customers.
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Re: Newbies Should Read This

Post by Google[Bot] » Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:49 pm

PaulCP wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:25 pm
Trojan wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:39 am
With all due respect to the OP, the list should now read.

Since September 2015, when deliveries of Ingenium diesels began, JLR has:

1) delivered cars that concealed the problem from owners due to faulty "software";
2) denied the existence of the problem when it surfaced, allowing dealers to reset service counters and skip vital oil changes;
3) blamed the high oil dilution on a variety of factors, most of which boiled down to "software";
4) blamed "driving style" when they could no longer get away with blaming "software";
5) admitting in a leaked document that the problem is real and caused by the exhaust architecture and hardware;
6) admitted in the same document to changing marketing materials to deflect future customer dissatisfaction;
7) admitted in another document that, actually, the DS IS more heavily affected by Dilution and DPF blockage due to the longer distance from the engine to the DPF;
8) told dealers to advise certain customers to steer away from the diesel DS altogether to minimise their risk of experiencing oil dilution or a blocked DPF (these customers would apparently be OK if they bought an XE, according to JLR);
9) changed the dilution trigger from 6% to 10% to squeeze out 66% more miles between oil changes; and
10) termed this erosion of failure margins a "software enhancement". :lol: :lol: :lol:

I've paid to watch less entertaining circuses.
CRC@LandRover wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:57 pm


I can confirm that Land Rover are currently working on a software enhancement in regards to the concerns that have been raised.

Unfortunately at this time, we have not been provided with an update as to when this will be released.

Once I have received further information I will arrange for the details to be posted in this forum.

I apologise for any inconvenience that this may cause.

Thanks,
Becci
Sums it up perfectly 👍

A decent car spoiled by corporate greed and corporate contempt for customers.
Or, maybe a stubborn ego made a costly blunder by thinking that car design can trample over engineering wisdom?

In late 2017 this forum and Daily Telegraph columnist HonestJohn had pieced together enough information from different sources to put forward a working hypothesis to explain the appalling, unprecedented diesel dilution. It turned out to be correct.

Immediately, the smell of sh!t looking for a place to settle wafted around the corridors at GEDC. Bang on cue, McGovern and Rogers met the press for interviews. They spoke in coded phrases but with the benefit of hindsight it's easy to understand what was going on. McGovern briefed Autocar in an article that appeared on 31st October 2017; Rogers' response appeared less than 2 weeks later in the Daily Telegraph.

It was pure peacocking. "Land Rover delivers without dilution" said McGovern. "If design comes first we produce fur coat cars" replied Rogers.

Mcgovern dilution.PNG

Rogers Mojo.PNG

Rogers quote.PNG

It was all so avoidable. If only they'd listened to their engineers.....


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