SCRF versus CSF - Are we on the bleeding edge?

Engine, Exhaust, Drivetrain, ECU Faults and Fixes
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NoDiscoSport
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DPF Architecture & Hardware

Post by NoDiscoSport » Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:30 am

Having looked again at the Topix Files for the Exhaust System I think the first Discovery Sport 2.0L Ingenium Diesel was meant to have a "classic" DOC - DPF - DEF Injection - SCR exhaust component layout to meet the EU6 standard (EU6 introduced Sept 2014, had to be installed on all vehicles from Sept 2015).

I think the evidence for an extremely late change of architecture has been sitting under our noses all this time. This diagram is from a Document Published: 21-Jul-2015 Exhaust System - INGENIUM I4 2.0L Diesel - Selective Catalyst Reduction Description and Operation. It's reproduced from page 7 of 9. Note that date 21st July 2015. File:
Exhaust system Selective Catalyst Reduction.pdf
(283.48 KiB) Downloaded 88 times

DS SCR SCR Schematic 20150818 Page 47 A.PNG


The rest of the manual extracts in this post are extracts from this document:

DS SCR Diagnostic & Testing 20150818 Page 1 Header.PNG

DS SCR Description & Operation 20150818 Page 41 A.PNG

DS SCR Component Location 20150818 Page 41 B.PNG

DS SCR Component Location 20150818 Page 41 C.PNG


The timeline is quite important because what these files appear to show is that between 15th May 2015 and 5th September 2015 everything pointed to an exhaust layout as per the first diagram at the top of this post. On 18th September 2015, the E.P.A. announced it was going to take legal action against VW in the United States for cheating the emissions tests.

The forum posts dhow that JLR immediately distributed a statement and FAQ sheet to dealers which they received on or around 22nd September 2015 in which they denied any association with the VW emissions scandal. According to owner reports there was then a delay before the first ones received their Ingenium Discovery Sport vehicles towards Christmas. When the Ingenium-engined DS finally started shipping:

1) It appears that its exhaust architecture was markedly different from that described in the documents published up to 5th September 2015.
2) It had a DOC DEF and SCRF layout rather than close-coupled DOC DPF with remote DEF-SCR
3) It suffered from chronic, premature diesel dilution as described in JLRP00100.
4) It had a faulty Service Message as described in JLRP00100 which concealed the diesel dilution.
5) It requested early oil services (first post is on here and documented) but only via the InControl App. These oil service requests were brushed off as insignificant by dealers with half stock phrases - all of which were misleading.

The rest is history.

Quora Bleeding Edge

NDS
Diagnosis Exhaust System DPF.pdf
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Last edited by NoDiscoSport on Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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NoDiscoSport
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DPF Architecture & Hardware

Post by NoDiscoSport » Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:35 am

Library to go with previous post:
Removal Exhaust System Catalytic Converter and DPF.pdf
(285.36 KiB) Downloaded 86 times
Exhaust System.pdf
(107.04 KiB) Downloaded 81 times
Exhaust system Selective Catalyst Reduction.pdf
(283.48 KiB) Downloaded 146 times
Exhaust System DPF Operation.pdf
(26.17 KiB) Downloaded 76 times
Exhaust System DPF Components.pdf
(101.39 KiB) Downloaded 73 times
Diagnosis Exhaust System.pdf
(114.53 KiB) Downloaded 78 times
Diagnosis Exhaust System Selective Catalytic Reduction.pdf
(493.59 KiB) Downloaded 79 times
Diagnosis Exhaust System DPF.pdf
(170.59 KiB) Downloaded 79 times
Last edited by NoDiscoSport on Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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NoDiscoSport
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DPF Architecture & Hardware

Post by NoDiscoSport » Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:38 am

Rest of Library

PS: NB In some diagrams there is clearly a DPF (a la XE/XF) at the back of the engine.
Removal Exhaust.pdf
(171.91 KiB) Downloaded 72 times
Removal Exhaust System without DEF.pdf
(412.16 KiB) Downloaded 75 times
Removal Exhaust System Rear Silencer.pdf
(245.89 KiB) Downloaded 73 times
Removal Exhaust System DPF Differential Pressure Sensor.pdf
(164.76 KiB) Downloaded 75 times
Removal Exhaust System Catalytic Converter.pdf
(1.99 MiB) Downloaded 76 times
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Re: SCRF versus CSF - Are we on the bleeding edge?

Post by BFGDSMan » Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:22 pm

Thinking about those Forum members who don't quite get the really technical level of explanation/discussion that some are involved in on this forum (not complaining but trying to make it easier for ALL to understand what has gone wrong with our cars including me!) I thought this article may be of interest to show what JLR should have done when turning the Ignenium diesel sideways to fit in the RRE, E-Pace and DS:

https://blog.mercedes-benz-passion.com/ ... abgasnorm/

The text is not really important (although I reckon Chippy will be reading it in full ;) ) but the 3rd picture from the left on the bottom of the two film strip rows towards the end of the article shows how close couple the SCR is to the turbo (i.e. cm's) and how the DPF is mounted horizontally below it. In the in line cars (like the C and E) the the DPF is vertical and even nearer the SCR and everything is wrapped in heated shielding foil to keep it warm, whcih I suspect this will be aswell once installed into production cars.

Suspect the Engineering team in Gaydon would do well to print off and send to the marketing team to explain why JLR are getting into an ever greater pile of poo with Transverse Ignenium Diesel installations?
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S marty
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Re: SCRF versus CSF - Are we on the bleeding edge?

Post by S marty » Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:59 pm

Doc at top,with def injector on right of this. Leading down to scrf canister.
Does this enable passive generation? Something scrf arnt generally good at, the engine out temp isnt high enough on normal driving.

Any figures given by merc for expected oil dilution levels? Often what isnt mentioned is the most important

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Re: SCRF versus CSF - Are we on the bleeding edge?

Post by BFGDSMan » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:39 pm

I was trying to get away from turning this forum thread away from the original topic, however... in the case of this engine then the service interval is set at 15000 miles/12 months are the specified oil grade is C3 (JLR spec for the Ignenium is the lower A5/B5) so I expect that is a tacit acknowledgement that they have thought about the problem? Clearly oil dilution is a known effect of active re-gen so for a car like the E Class that would normally be bought by business types with high annual mileages you would expect much longer service intervals than 15000 miles/12 months?

I have neither the in-depth technical knowledge or broader understanding of the merits of device order to comment about why MB have the set up they do, however, I know that when they launched the standard in line engine a couple of years back that much was said about how close they had the anti-pollution stuff coupled and that this encouraged quick warm up and hence quick dealing with the exhaust nasties.

I have to say in the three weeks we have had my wifes E Class diesel it has only actively regened after about 750 miles, currently as my DS has only been between work and home for the last three weeks and not gone anywhere near a constant 20 min run for active regen I have been start stop less for three weeks now and every journey it has tried to actively regen.
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S marty
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Re: SCRF versus CSF - Are we on the bleeding edge?

Post by S marty » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:29 pm

Im sure your right about the constant active regen attempts, got some diagnostic equipment on board I assume :D

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NoDiscoSport
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Re: SCRF versus CSF - Are we on the bleeding edge?

Post by NoDiscoSport » Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:23 pm

OM 654 q
The OM 654 q variant has a cylinder spacing of 90 mm and allows the installation of the exhaust after-treatment components directly on the engine. There, the exhaust gas temperature is even higher and thus the aftertreatment more effective. Thanks to the further development of exhaust aftertreatment, the powerful four-cylinder engine from the modern OM 654 engine family already fulfils the level 2 RDE (Real Driving Emissions), which will only be binding from 2020, and is certified to Euro 6 d. Even in demanding driving situations and environmental conditions beyond the norm, the B-Class remains under all emission requirements - according to the manufacturer.

This is achieved by means of an additional Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) catalytic converter with ammonia blocking catalytic converter (ASC) in the exhaust system of the B-Class. This allows for a generous dosage of the reducing agent AdBlue, because any surpluses in the second SCR are degraded and converted. These surpluses (ammonia slip) occur especially in the case of rapid temperature changes in the exhaust system, for example when changing from city traffic to the motorway.
Finally, a design that simultaneously addresses the conflicting requirements of HC/PM storage/disposal and NO and NO2 reduction. Without additional investment on this scale, no manufacturer could ever have hoped to meet the emissions targets for new cars sold from September 2015 - unless that is, their design included an ECU with the "acoustic function" enabled.
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Re: SCRF versus CSF - Are we on the bleeding edge?

Post by BFGDSMan » Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:17 am

NDS,

I think (think) from what I remember about the MB press blurb pumped out a couple of years back that the main (in-line) variant of this engine cost about €2Bn to develop! I know the new 6 cylinder engine is a modular extension of the 4 cylinder unit.

I do know one thing - considering that there was only just over 15 months between the Ignenium and the 654 being released to market the difference in refinement and power delivery is like comparing the old PSA XUD diesels (late 80's and the 90's) with their 2000's HDI engines.

Any way back to topic! Clearly as you say the 654 shows how much engineering adaptation that needs to take place to maintain engine exhaust management performance when you twist the engine installation by 90 degs.

BFG
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Henning
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Re: SCRF versus CSF - Are we on the bleeding edge?

Post by Henning » Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:18 pm

You’re quite right BFGDSMAN. If only more people on here knew what it really entails!

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