SCRF versus CSF - Are we on the bleeding edge?

Engine, Exhaust, Drivetrain, ECU Faults and Fixes
Chippy
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Re: Newbies Should Read This

Post by Chippy » Tue May 08, 2018 12:10 pm

Typical, never mind the poor customer just don’t mess with my design lines.
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Badgerface
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Re: Newbies Should Read This

Post by Badgerface » Tue May 08, 2018 2:51 pm

His Cravatness.......😂😂😂😂
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NoDiscoSport
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Re: SCRF versus CSF - Are we on the bleeding edge?

Post by NoDiscoSport » Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:38 pm

JM's SCRF overview appears to have been updated but with no mention of WLTP. It says that, technically, this is now a "very demanding" system meant for close-coupled installations and may require additional SCR or NH3 Slip Catalysts to work properly.
The SCRF® system integrates Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) with a soot filter – the next step for diesel NOx control.

The SCRF system for light duty diesel improves system compactness and, over the European drive cycle, warms up more quickly than an SCR downstream of a CSF (due to its closer proximity to the engine) enabling earlier NOx conversion.

The SCRF system allows improved thermal management of the catalyst on the vehicle, is technically a very demanding system and may require additional SCR/ammonia slip catalyst (ASC) to maximise NOx conversion.

For diesel cars, SCR is widely used to control NOx. Urea is injected into the exhaust and decomposes to ammonia, which is stored on the SCR catalyst. When NOx passes over the catalyst it reacts with the stored ammonia and reduces to nitrogen.

Johnson Matthey manufactures SCR coatings with copper, iron and vanadium based materials that can be applied to extruded monoliths. The coating can also be applied to the particulate filter, allowing for a more compact SCRF system.

Euro 6 diesel emissions legislation for passenger cars began in September 2014. Johnson Matthey's SCRF system, first developed and manufactured in Royston in 2012, helps vehicle manufacturers meet these demanding requirements.
https://matthey.com/products-and-servic ... technology
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Badgerface
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Re: SCRF versus CSF - Are we on the bleeding edge?

Post by Badgerface » Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:37 pm

NDS, just playing devils advocate with that report, I wonder if the JM SCR coating applied could possibly be elsewhere within the Ingenium engine, in the feint hope that it would further reduce emissions at block level, yet in reality contribute to diluting the oil post-injection with higher levels of copper/iron etc, as has been found by owners independently having their oils examined at Lab.

Just a thought....
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Badgerface
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Re: SCRF versus CSF - Are we on the bleeding edge?

Post by Badgerface » Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:25 pm

CG, Allah Akhbar, Salaam Ali khum!

Do you have anything tangible to contribute to this thread? Would be most helpful if you did old chap....

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NoDiscoSport
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Re: SCRF versus CSF - Are we on the bleeding edge?

Post by NoDiscoSport » Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:55 pm

Badgerface wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:37 pm
NDS, just playing devils advocate with that report, I wonder if the JM SCR coating applied could possibly be elsewhere within the Ingenium engine, in the feint hope that it would further reduce emissions at block level, yet in reality contribute to diluting the oil post-injection with higher levels of copper/iron etc, as has been found by owners independently having their oils examined at Lab.

Just a thought....
Its a good question. The average Copper deposits are 30.1 ppm for an average of 8,591 miles, scaled up this would equal 42 ppm for a more realistic 12,000 miles service interval. This is elevated but not sufficiently high to cause concern according to NCH and the Oil Analysis Handbook which both quote 50 ppm (from memory I think Millers uses 40 ppm). I think this amount of Copper is therefore adequately accounted for by bushes, thrust washers, connecting rods bearings, thrust buttons, bearing cages and other engine components shedding it and so there's no need to look anywhere else.

For the record, we do know that JM were experimenting with Copper doping on their SCRF coatings because of a sequence of patent applications they filed in 2016-17 but it's doubtful whether any of these made it into SCRF production in time for MY2016 although they might have been available later. (See download/file.php?id=7541 for the particular JM patent application) . To my way of thinking it's hard to see how Copper in this location could find it's way back round the EGR system and into the oil and, as shown above, the amount that's there is already explainable by normal levels of engine sacrifice. As to whether the Copper-doped SCR coatings would be applied anywhere else even further upstream (e.g. diesel oxidation catalyst) I think it's doubtful because, according to the chemistry, the beneficial effect of the Copper only works during active regeneration of soot at temperatures above about 480 deg C.

Now Iron (the other main wear metal) is a different matter altogether because at 313 ppm average for 12,000 miles it was definitely into the warning range. Remember the unexplained Silicon? For ages everybody was querying "dirt", "oil seals" or even "brake fluid" (!) and then a chemist friend told me that Si is used in the production of cast Iron and suddenly there was the perfectly plausible explanation for these two elements being found together in just about the right concentrations. Since no-one has done much oil testing recently we don't know if the Iron shedding has moderated or stayed the same after first and subsequent oil changes. It would still be good to know for anyone who is still planning to keep one of these engines going past the end of the manufacturer's warranty.
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Are we there yet
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Re: SCRF versus CSF - Are we on the bleeding edge?

Post by Are we there yet » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:39 am

As I've said before this whole discussion is really best left for people who actually know the answers.

All this amateur sleuthing and google researching isnt really helping the forum members in the search for the truth in this very convoluted issue.
Its easy to prove many points using google, but just as easy to find a counter argument for the point you have just proven

I have asked for hard evidence on many points in the dim and distant past and received largely hearsay , gossip and googled documents.

Entering discussion on this will simply lead to me being banned so I refuse to do so.

Please refer to the dates on the service interval thread to notice it was me who informed the forum that the DS has an SCRF not a close couple DPF, so changing much of the disputed evidence overnight, several hours later this bleeding edge thread was started .

no more will be added by me. so please dont taunt me.

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Re: SCRF versus CSF - Are we on the bleeding edge?

Post by Barnsh » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:38 am

Are we there yet wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:39 am
As I've said before this whole discussion is really best left for people who actually know the answers.

All this amateur sleuthing and google researching isnt really helping the forum members in the search for the truth in this very convoluted issue.
Its easy to prove many points using google, but just as easy to find a counter argument for the point you have just proven

I have asked for hard evidence on many points in the dim and distant past and received largely hearsay , gossip and googled documents.

Entering discussion on this will simply lead to me being banned so I refuse to do so.

Please refer to the dates on the service interval thread to notice it was me who informed the forum that the DS has an SCRF not a close couple DPF, so changing much of the disputed evidence overnight, several hours later this bleeding edge thread was started .

no more will be added by me. so please dont taunt me.
Unfortunately a permanent ban is just that , a permanent ban.
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NoDiscoSport
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Re: SCRF versus CSF - Are we on the bleeding edge?

Post by NoDiscoSport » Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:25 am

Are we there yet wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:39 am
Please refer to the dates on the service interval thread to notice it was me who informed the forum that the DS has an SCRF not a close couple DPF, so changing much of the disputed evidence overnight, several hours later this bleeding edge thread was started .

What the record actually shows is that VeryDiscoSport first used the phrase SCRF after publishing an extract from a letter he received from Jaguar Land Rover on 24th October 2017. The following post was made on 25th October 2017. VDS admitted straight away to misidentifying the DOC for the SCRF but that's immaterial. The world got to know that there was an SCRF from the Executive Office via VDS.
VeryDiscoSport wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:42 am
Jaguar Land Rover have finally committed to a meaning for "driving style" and explained how normal driving, combined with the "hardware and architecture" differences referred to in the SCN, can't invoke passive DPF regeneration on this car. It is now time to join up the dots to gain a proper understanding of what the SCN meant by "hardware and architecture" differences.

" 'Typical' driving style as an average across customers is journeys of 15-30 minutes with a speed between 50 kmph and 100 kmph, which includes some drives of over an hour. The exhaust temperature achieved in normal driving is low and as such there is no passive regeneration and soot must be cleared through active regeneration. " Jaguar Land Rover, 24 October 2017.

On the DS the exhaust gas leaves the turbo outlet and negotiates a 120 degree bend before entering the SCRF (selective catalytic reductant filter) which is mounted at a small angle from the vertical. Downstream of the SCRF the gas is levelled off before entering the front of the diesel particulate filter (DPF), by which point it has travelled a total distance, including the SCRF, of more than 3 feet from the turbo. As pointed out a few posts back this architecture means that the temperatures are too cold for passive regeneration to occur: this interpretation of the problem has now been confirmed by the manufacturer in the statement quoted above.

Here is the pipe between the turbo and the SCRF

Video Capture 2.JPG

And the pipe between the SCRF and the DPF.

Video Capture 1.JPG

Compare this with the XF DPF which is close-coupled to the turbo outlet where the temperature is maintained at several hundred degrees C.

DPF XF 2.jpg

JLR Promotional Video Link:

The prosecution rests, your Honour.

The first time the phrase was used by chicken george was 7th November 2017 in this post: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5379&p=77307&hilit=Scrf#p77307

Maybe chicken george never saw this post, or perhaps he just didn't read it thoroughly enough. Regardless, the record stands. This letter was perhaps the second most important clue to unravelling this problem. In it JLR inadvertently allowed us to understand the words "architecture and hardware" from the SCN JLRP00100. That compliance notification has always been THE most important piece of evidence and it also came from VDS in post number 215 of the Service Interval thread. But it wasn't possible to paint the full picture until we knew about the SCRF.


viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5379&start=215
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Barnsh
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Re: SCRF versus CSF - Are we on the bleeding edge?

Post by Barnsh » Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:11 am

Enough guys.
A lot of anamosity is starting to creep in to the forum again , please remind yourselves of the rules on the forum and think before you post. This applies to all threads and all posts.
Feel free to voice your thoughts and opinions but refrain from starting arguments just for the sake of it or flaming posts and attacking people personally

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