SCRF versus CSF - Are we on the bleeding edge?

Engine, Exhaust, Drivetrain, ECU Faults and Fixes
JaneyB
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Re: Newbies Should Read This

Post by JaneyB » Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:20 am

Hi - just joined the forum and about to order my first LR #excited!
I've read most of the posts here and can't see anything newer than a September post - just wondering if this has been resolved with JLR?


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PhilMabbots17
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Re: Newbies Should Read This

Post by PhilMabbots17 » Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:13 am

Hi JaneyB

You might need to contain your excitement for a bit longer. Since September 2015, when deliveries of Ingenium diesels began, JLR has:
1) delivered cars that concealed the problem from owners due to faulty "software";
2) denied the existence of the problem when it surfaced, allowing dealers to reset service counters and skip vital oil changes;
3) blamed the high oil dilution on a variety of factors, most of which boiled down to "software";
4) blamed "driving style" when they could no longer get away with blaming "software";
5) admitting in a leaked document that the problem is real and caused by the exhaust architecture and hardware;
6) admitted in the same document to changing marketing materials to deflect future customer dissatisfaction;
7) 37 months after the first faulty cars were delivered, acknowledged that there is a known problem which will be fixed by....wait for it...…
SOFTWARE !!! :lol:
CRC@LandRover wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:57 pm


I can confirm that Land Rover are currently working on a software enhancement in regards to the concerns that have been raised.

Unfortunately at this time, we have not been provided with an update as to when this will be released.

Once I have received further information I will arrange for the details to be posted in this forum.

I apologise for any inconvenience that this may cause.

Thanks,
Becci
2019 (19) Lexus RX 450h V6 Sport 4WD 8-)
2017 (66) Mercedes GLC 220d 4Matic Sport
2017 (17) Land Rover DS HSE 2.0L (Rejected)


Google[Bot]
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Re: SCRF versus CSF - Are we on the bleeding edge?

Post by Google[Bot] » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:02 pm

Are we there yet wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:39 am
As I've said before this whole discussion is really best left for people who actually know the answers.

All this amateur sleuthing and google researching isnt really helping the forum members in the search for the truth in this very convoluted issue.
Its easy to prove many points using google, but just as easy to find a counter argument for the point you have just proven

I have asked for hard evidence on many points in the dim and distant past and received largely hearsay , gossip and googled documents.

Entering discussion on this will simply lead to me being banned so I refuse to do so.

Please refer to the dates on the service interval thread to notice it was me who informed the forum that the DS has an SCRF not a close couple DPF, so changing much of the disputed evidence overnight, several hours later this bleeding edge thread was started .

no more will be added by me. so please dont taunt me.
Haven't laughed so much since Del Boy leaned on the non-existent bar. Seriously, I found this to be a very informative thread but it woudln't be complete without a contribution from the manufacturer, surely the ultimate definition of people who actually know the answers.
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Barnsh
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Re: SCRF versus CSF - Are we on the bleeding edge?

Post by Barnsh » Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:54 am

Google[Bot] wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:02 pm
Are we there yet wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:39 am
As I've said before this whole discussion is really best left for people who actually know the answers.

All this amateur sleuthing and google researching isnt really helping the forum members in the search for the truth in this very convoluted issue.
Its easy to prove many points using google, but just as easy to find a counter argument for the point you have just proven

I have asked for hard evidence on many points in the dim and distant past and received largely hearsay , gossip and googled documents.

Entering discussion on this will simply lead to me being banned so I refuse to do so.

Please refer to the dates on the service interval thread to notice it was me who informed the forum that the DS has an SCRF not a close couple DPF, so changing much of the disputed evidence overnight, several hours later this bleeding edge thread was started .

no more will be added by me. so please dont taunt me.
Haven't laughed so much since Del Boy leaned on the non-existent bar. Seriously, I found this to be a very informative thread but it woudln't be complete without a contribution from the manufacturer, surely the ultimate definition of people who actually know the answers.
Image
I know , we’ve been saying this for ages ......it’s too far away to get hot enough!

Now we know it’s 70cm too far away 🙄😂😂😂😂😂😂😂. JLR must be reading our threads for training.
My18 FPace, 25t, BRG, R Sport, Auto. 18 way mem Seats, ActiveLED, PrivGlass, ICTP, blis, cooled gloves, spare.
MY17 HSE 180 gone
My16.5 DS 180 b pillar tick ~ rejected :oops:
My16 DS 180 ~ rejected :oops:


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TeddyBear
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Re: SCRF versus CSF - Are we on the bleeding edge?

Post by TeddyBear » Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:51 pm

Barnsh wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:54 am
I know , we’ve been saying this for ages ......it’s too far away to get hot enough!

Now we know it’s 70cm too far away 🙄😂😂😂😂😂😂😂. JLR must be reading our threads for training.
Will it roast poultry? "Bear Indoors" says a 5lb stuffed bird needs 200 deg C for 2 hours. :lol:


Barnsh
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Re: SCRF versus CSF - Are we on the bleeding edge?

Post by Barnsh » Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:10 pm

TeddyBear wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:51 pm
Barnsh wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:54 am
I know , we’ve been saying this for ages ......it’s too far away to get hot enough!

Now we know it’s 70cm too far away 🙄😂😂😂😂😂😂😂. JLR must be reading our threads for training.
Will it roast poultry? "Bear Indoors" says a 5lb stuffed bird needs 200 deg C for 2 hours. :lol:
Yes if you stuff it in the DOC , potatoes could be done along with veg in the DPF if you don’t mind them crunchy.😂😂
My18 FPace, 25t, BRG, R Sport, Auto. 18 way mem Seats, ActiveLED, PrivGlass, ICTP, blis, cooled gloves, spare.
MY17 HSE 180 gone
My16.5 DS 180 b pillar tick ~ rejected :oops:
My16 DS 180 ~ rejected :oops:


Trojan
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Re: Newbies Should Read This

Post by Trojan » Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:29 pm

PhilMabbots17 wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:13 am
Hi JaneyB

You might need to contain your excitement for a bit longer. Since September 2015, when deliveries of Ingenium diesels began, JLR has:
1) delivered cars that concealed the problem from owners due to faulty "software";
2) denied the existence of the problem when it surfaced, allowing dealers to reset service counters and skip vital oil changes;
3) blamed the high oil dilution on a variety of factors, most of which boiled down to "software";
4) blamed "driving style" when they could no longer get away with blaming "software";
5) admitting in a leaked document that the problem is real and caused by the exhaust architecture and hardware;
6) admitted in the same document to changing marketing materials to deflect future customer dissatisfaction;
7) 37 months after the first faulty cars were delivered, acknowledged that there is a known problem which will be fixed by....wait for it...…
SOFTWARE !!! :lol:
CRC@LandRover wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:57 pm


I can confirm that Land Rover are currently working on a software enhancement in regards to the concerns that have been raised.

Unfortunately at this time, we have not been provided with an update as to when this will be released.

Once I have received further information I will arrange for the details to be posted in this forum.

I apologise for any inconvenience that this may cause.

Thanks,
Becci
^^^^^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^^^^

The "software enhancement" referred to by Becci on 19th October 2018 turned out to be N289, which Dan then told us on 12th March 2019 was going to raise the estimated diesel dilution percentage from 6% to 10%. After four years of Arthur Daley ducking and diving JLR finally ignored the advice of its own engineering management (TSEM level) and raised diesel dilution by two thirds to fool customers that there isn't a dilution problem on the D180. Because of this deception I won't know now when the smegging oil needs changing. Please feel free to tell me how this represents an "enhancement", JLR people reading this. :(

Newbies! Before you unconsciously join the ranks of the diesel disaffected, go and read the following post on Epace forums. It contains a clear technical explanation for the Evoque/DS/EPace exhaust design fault that might make your life a misery if you live in a city, town or village.

https://www.epaceforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=249&p=5186#p5186

Read JLRP001000.
JLRP00100.pdf
(2.92 MiB) Downloaded 18 times
Then this: Image

So that was 2015 to 2019. But you are looking at 20MY. If, having read all of this, you think it might still be wise to present some concerns to your salesman and he says that its OK because everything has been fixed on the 2020 models.....

.....ask for some solid proof. Because I've looked into this (on my back) and saw no evidence that anything has changed on either the All new Evoque or facelifted DS.
2017 HSE 180 Corris Grey


Google[Bot]
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Re: Newbies Should Read This

Post by Google[Bot] » Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:49 pm

PaulCP wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:25 pm
Trojan wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:39 am
With all due respect to the OP, the list should now read.

Since September 2015, when deliveries of Ingenium diesels began, JLR has:

1) delivered cars that concealed the problem from owners due to faulty "software";
2) denied the existence of the problem when it surfaced, allowing dealers to reset service counters and skip vital oil changes;
3) blamed the high oil dilution on a variety of factors, most of which boiled down to "software";
4) blamed "driving style" when they could no longer get away with blaming "software";
5) admitting in a leaked document that the problem is real and caused by the exhaust architecture and hardware;
6) admitted in the same document to changing marketing materials to deflect future customer dissatisfaction;
7) admitted in another document that, actually, the DS IS more heavily affected by Dilution and DPF blockage due to the longer distance from the engine to the DPF;
8) told dealers to advise certain customers to steer away from the diesel DS altogether to minimise their risk of experiencing oil dilution or a blocked DPF (these customers would apparently be OK if they bought an XE, according to JLR);
9) changed the dilution trigger from 6% to 10% to squeeze out 66% more miles between oil changes; and
10) termed this erosion of failure margins a "software enhancement". :lol: :lol: :lol:

I've paid to watch less entertaining circuses.
CRC@LandRover wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:57 pm


I can confirm that Land Rover are currently working on a software enhancement in regards to the concerns that have been raised.

Unfortunately at this time, we have not been provided with an update as to when this will be released.

Once I have received further information I will arrange for the details to be posted in this forum.

I apologise for any inconvenience that this may cause.

Thanks,
Becci
Sums it up perfectly 👍

A decent car spoiled by corporate greed and corporate contempt for customers.
Or, maybe a stubborn ego made a costly blunder by thinking that car design can trample over engineering wisdom?

In late 2017 this forum and Daily Telegraph columnist HonestJohn had pieced together enough information from different sources to put forward a working hypothesis to explain the appalling, unprecedented diesel dilution. It turned out to be correct.

Immediately, the smell of sh!t looking for a place to settle wafted around the corridors at GEDC. Bang on cue, McGovern and Rogers met the press for interviews. They spoke in coded phrases but with the benefit of hindsight it's easy to understand what was going on. McGovern briefed Autocar in an article that appeared on 31st October 2017; Rogers' response appeared less than 2 weeks later in the Daily Telegraph.

It was pure peacocking. "Land Rover delivers without dilution" said McGovern. "If design comes first we produce fur coat cars" replied Rogers.

Mcgovern dilution.PNG

Rogers Mojo.PNG

Rogers quote.PNG

It was all so avoidable. If only they'd listened to their engineers.....


Rediscovery
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Re: Newbies Should Read This

Post by Rediscovery » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:06 pm

Copying this here for the benefit of Approved Used "newbies".

Image
17MY SE Tech White


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Ian_S
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Re: Newbies Should Read This

Post by Ian_S » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:36 pm

Trojan wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:35 am
Ah, yes, neck ties. People who know what went on will tell you off the record that Design refused to give Engineering the space they needed to fit the XE DPF behind the transverse Ingenium engine. That decision was, as we know, the single root cause behind all these problems. Now, who was it that made the decisions back then? Who reported to whom? So who ultimately signs off the engineering decisions today?
While it's nice and convenient to blame the evil corporation and the cravat for greed I don't think that is the real reason.

When the Ingenium was being developed for the DS & Evoque, Dieselgate had not yet happened. This I think is important as pre-Dieselgate, most manufacturers were running their engines hotter via the ECU as that produces much less soot, and gives the DPF an easier time. The downside of this is that when run hotter, the engines produce way more NOx. Once they got caught cheating because NOx levels were way higher than they should be (not by small amounts either) then the 'fixes' started to make cars behave like the DS ....

The timing for LR was the worst it could have been, exactly when they were about to launch their new engines. So in order to not get caught up in Dieselgate they have to reconfigure the ECU to be emissions compliant which reduces the engine operating temperature, a double whammy for the DS as now the SCRF is too far away for reduced temps to be at all effective for any kind of passive regeneration, and lower engine temps produce more soot. So with zero passive regeneration to help keep increased soot levels down, DPF's clog more easily and all owners get oil dilution to varying degrees.

The Netflix documentary sums this up perfectly I feel. VW did this to become the no.1 car manufacturer in the world, i.e to gain market share. Where are they now? :) In spite of all the fines, their goal was achieved and they forced all other manufacturers to either quit diesel or copy them to stay competitive. JLR got burned badly.

Unfortunately their soot didn't get burnt at all....
MY2016 HSE TD4 180


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