Engine replacing Balance Shaft

Engine, Exhaust, Drivetrain, ECU Faults and Fixes
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adeolly
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Re: Engine replacing Balance Shaft

Post by adeolly » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:50 pm

Careless wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:37 pm
evening all, thought i'd join the party, disco sport landmark new sept 2018, developed a whine at about 5000 miles, booked in with the dealer (6 week wait time), diagnosed as balancing shaft, back in next tuesday 3rd september for replacement

reading the various forums on this, it's not uncommon for this to re-occur. I suppose there is little chance of rejecting the vehicle at this stage, but any advice very welcome
I had the balance shafts replaced on y F-Pace at 5800 miles. Car is now at 15,000 and its not re-occurred, In fact engine has now loosened up fully and is much sweeter than it was. Personally I don't believe oil dilution is the (only?) cause of the balance shaft issue. In my case, my driving is nearly all long jouneys and I could count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I got out of the car to the smell of an interrupted DPF regen. I was lent a nearly new 306BHP Range Rover Sport for the duration of the repair, so no hardship at all. In fact I'd have happily kept the RRS.

Issue has not occurred on our DS which is now at 19K miles and continues to run perfectly with no issues at all.....
MY18 2.0 150 HSE manual, Firenze red with narvik black roof, rear tints, 2nd row USB, blind spot monitoring, reverse traffic detection, space saver spare.


Barnsh
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Re: Engine replacing Balance Shaft

Post by Barnsh » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:02 pm

adeolly wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:50 pm
Careless wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:37 pm
evening all, thought i'd join the party, disco sport landmark new sept 2018, developed a whine at about 5000 miles, booked in with the dealer (6 week wait time), diagnosed as balancing shaft, back in next tuesday 3rd september for replacement

reading the various forums on this, it's not uncommon for this to re-occur. I suppose there is little chance of rejecting the vehicle at this stage, but any advice very welcome
I had the balance shafts replaced on y F-Pace at 5800 miles. Car is now at 15,000 and its not re-occurred, In fact engine has now loosened up fully and is much sweeter than it was. Personally I don't believe oil dilution is the (only?) cause of the balance shaft issue. In my case, my driving is nearly all long jouneys and I could count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I got out of the car to the smell of an interrupted DPF regen. I was lent a nearly new 306BHP Range Rover Sport for the duration of the repair, so no hardship at all. In fact I'd have happily kept the RRS.

Issue has not occurred on our DS which is now at 19K miles and continues to run perfectly with no issues at all.....
I’m not convinced it has nothing to do with oil dilution
Looking at the customer service colour coding of dilution , for balance shafts you get
Cars listed as green - unheard of
Cars listed as orange - one or two ( including FPace)
Cars listed as red- quite a lot more ( includes Evoque , DS, EPace)
My18 FPace, 25t, BRG, R Sport, Auto. 18 way mem Seats, ActiveLED, PrivGlass, ICTP, blis, cooled gloves, spare.
MY17 HSE 180 gone
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Naqshejahan
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Re: Engine replacing Balance Shaft

Post by Naqshejahan » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:59 pm

This is not true.

I have a Jaguar XE 180D Late 2018. Developed balance shaft issue at 5000 miles. This car is listed as green on Oil dilution bulletin, as is the F-PACE.

I think the balance shaft issue is specific to 2017-2018 models and JLR are now replacing them with a modified balance shaft.

I doubt it has anything to do with oil dilution, may be poor design and poor oil delivery to the balance shaft.


Barnsh
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Re: Engine replacing Balance Shaft

Post by Barnsh » Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:18 am

Naqshejahan wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:59 pm
This is not true.

I have a Jaguar XE 180D Late 2018. Developed balance shaft issue at 5000 miles. This car is listed as green on Oil dilution bulletin, as is the F-PACE.

I think the balance shaft issue is specific to 2017-2018 models and JLR are now replacing them with a modified balance shaft.

I doubt it has anything to do with oil dilution, may be poor design and poor oil delivery to the balance shaft.
The correlation of number of cars affected is directly in line with DPF issues. / oil dilution.
Just because your in the green crowd doesn’t mean it will never happen.

I don’t think it’s just oil dilution as I said previously , there is another fundamental issue possibly exacerbated by oil dilution ( poor oil viscosity) . It’s pretty easy to sea the poor lubrication if the overheated and blues bearings on the shaft.
You also have to remember they had a run of dicky oil pumps thrown into the mix.
The diesel by its clattery ( to some) nature needs more balancing than a petrol so it’s also another possibility it’s just not man enough for the job.

Either way if you count up all the JLR vehicles with balance shaft issues across forums you get the same green orange red.
My18 FPace, 25t, BRG, R Sport, Auto. 18 way mem Seats, ActiveLED, PrivGlass, ICTP, blis, cooled gloves, spare.
MY17 HSE 180 gone
My16.5 DS 180 b pillar tick ~ rejected :oops:
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Barnsh
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Re: Engine replacing Balance Shaft

Post by Barnsh » Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:19 am

Naqshejahan wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:59 pm
This is not true.

I have a Jaguar XE 180D Late 2018. Developed balance shaft issue at 5000 miles. This car is listed as green on Oil dilution bulletin, as is the F-PACE.

I think the balance shaft issue is specific to 2017-2018 models and JLR are now replacing them with a modified balance shaft.

I doubt it has anything to do with oil dilution, may be poor design and poor oil delivery to the balance shaft.
Ah that chestnut ...modified but with the same part number ...mmmmm
My18 FPace, 25t, BRG, R Sport, Auto. 18 way mem Seats, ActiveLED, PrivGlass, ICTP, blis, cooled gloves, spare.
MY17 HSE 180 gone
My16.5 DS 180 b pillar tick ~ rejected :oops:
My16 DS 180 ~ rejected :oops:


Naqshejahan
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Re: Engine replacing Balance Shaft

Post by Naqshejahan » Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:26 pm

I have written confirmation via email that it is a modified balance shaft which they are now using. Will see how it develops. I hope this fixes it.

I cant see how you have arrived at a correlation between oil dilution and rate of balance shaft failure.

The ECU would recommend oil change once dilution hits 6%. At this level, I would imagine that load bearing surfaces like crank shaft would be more susceptible to damage. I think the balance shaft is a separate issue, but I may be wrong.

BW

Naqshejahan


Barnsh
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Re: Engine replacing Balance Shaft

Post by Barnsh » Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:31 pm

Naqshejahan wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:26 pm
I have written confirmation via email that it is a modified balance shaft which they are now using. Will see how it develops. I hope this fixes it.

I cant see how you have arrived at a correlation between oil dilution and rate of balance shaft failure.

The ECU would recommend oil change once dilution hits 6%. At this level, I would imagine that load bearing surfaces like crank shaft would be more susceptible to damage. I think the balance shaft is a separate issue, but I may be wrong.

BW

Naqshejahan
Sure is hard to define exactly what it is , but lubrication is favourite looking at the balance shaft video of the strip down.
The balance shafts are rotating at twice the speed of the engine , do any lack of oil or poor viscosity won’t do them any good.
My concern with changing just the shafts has always been the fact the outer race of the bearing is part of the engine and is not changed when the shaft is changed- effectively changing half a bearing . The inner race and rollers being pressed to the shaft.

Hope your new shafts work out well for you .
My18 FPace, 25t, BRG, R Sport, Auto. 18 way mem Seats, ActiveLED, PrivGlass, ICTP, blis, cooled gloves, spare.
MY17 HSE 180 gone
My16.5 DS 180 b pillar tick ~ rejected :oops:
My16 DS 180 ~ rejected :oops:


Rediscovery
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Re: Engine replacing Balance Shaft

Post by Rediscovery » Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:00 pm

Barnsh wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:31 pm
Naqshejahan wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:26 pm
I have written confirmation via email that it is a modified balance shaft which they are now using. Will see how it develops. I hope this fixes it.

I cant see how you have arrived at a correlation between oil dilution and rate of balance shaft failure.

The ECU would recommend oil change once dilution hits 6%. At this level, I would imagine that load bearing surfaces like crank shaft would be more susceptible to damage. I think the balance shaft is a separate issue, but I may be wrong.

BW

Naqshejahan
Sure is hard to define exactly what it is , but lubrication is favourite looking at the balance shaft video of the strip down.
The balance shafts are rotating at twice the speed of the engine , do any lack of oil or poor viscosity won’t do them any good.
My concern with changing just the shafts has always been the fact the outer race of the bearing is part of the engine and is not changed when the shaft is changed- effectively changing half a bearing . The inner race and rollers being pressed to the shaft.

Hope your new shafts work out well for you .
The only oil spray nozzles in the sump are the four piston cooling oil jets located adjacent to each cylinder and secured into the cylinder block with a bolt (2, 3, 4, 5 below) . These jets provide piston and gudgeon pin cooling and lubrication through a single outlet nozzle which sprays oil into the cooling chamber in the piston. In addition to supplying oil to the piston cooling gallery the oil lubricates the small end bearing and gudgeon pin.

piston jets.PNG

The balance shaft bearings are not specifically served by the piston cooling jets and rely on the general "oil mist" present in the crank case for their lubrication.

balance xhafts.PNG

From the maintenance manual.
Dynamic Balance Shafts

The engine balance system consists of two eccentric weighted dynamic balancer shafts which oppose vibrations created by the engine's reciprocating components. The dynamic balancers are mounted into machined bores inside the cylinder block. The two dynamic balancers rotate in opposite directions, driven at twice the speed of the crankshaft by a dynamic balancer gear pressed onto the crankshaft. The equally sized eccentric weights are phased so that the inertia reaction to their counter-rotation cancels out vibration caused by the engine. One of the dynamic balancers is driven off an 86-teeth dynamic balancer ring gear located on the crankshaft which rotates a 43-teeth driven gear on the driven dynamic balancer. The second dynamic balancer is driven off the same ring gear through a 45-teeth idler gear which rotates the 43-teeth driven gear on the driven dynamic balancer.

The idler gear is mounted on to the cylinder block using a steel idler bush which is pressed into the cylinder block. Driven gears on one of the dynamic balancers and the idler gear are anti-backlash “scissor” gears in order to minimize noise. All the gears are helical to ensure smooth operation. The dynamic balancers are located on needle roller bearings which run on outer races installed in the cylinder block machined bores. The bearings are lubricated by oil mist during engine operation. It is important to make sure that each dynamic balancer is timed correctly in respect to the crankshaft using alignment tool(s).
There are several conditions that could result in inadequate lubrication reaching the needle roller bearings and we can all imagine one or two for ourselves. Here was my first thought when I looked at this: where does the oil mist originate? At least some proportion of it must come from the piston cooling jets. But digging a bit deeper reveals that these jets don't operate all the time: they are switched on and off according to the engine temperature. Again, the maintenance manual provides the details:
The jets are supplied pressurized engine oil from the variable flow oil pump with integral vacuum pump via a drilling in the cylinder block. The oil supply to the drilling is controlled by a piston cooling oil jets solenoid which is controlled by the Powertrain Control Module (PCM). The solenoid can open and close the oil supply depending on engine speed and load.

solenoid.PNG

The implication is that the "piston cooling oil jets solenoid" turns these jets on only when the engine is hot or working hard. Light bulb moment....
Might balance shaft failures be occurring more frequently in cars that are driven in a more "relaxed" fashion? :o :shock:
Is there always a delay in lubrication reaching the bearings at start up?
Could the cooling jets be tricked into staying on?

Any brother/sister engineers out there care to comment?


Glyn
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Re: Engine replacing Balance Shaft

Post by Glyn » Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:17 am

Hi, I am not an engineer & could not comment on the technical arguments, but I can spot a real worry hear for members who intend to keep their vehicle, failure of the solonoid in future could be a disaster.A faulty part stuck in the closed position could ( I assume) lead to loss of oil supply & eventual engine failure??
I am waiting for delivery of a 2020 version of the Discovery Sport in November. Hope all the issues have been sorted with the uprated model


Naqshejahan
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Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:52 pm

Re: Engine replacing Balance Shaft

Post by Naqshejahan » Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:29 pm

Update: Balance shaft replaced.
Received car on 27th September. So far no more signs of the whining balance shaft noise. Hope it stays that way.
The person dealing with my case said the problem with the previous balance shaft was that the oil nozzles delivering oil to the bearings were too small. This resulted in insufficient oil delivery specially when cold.
Apparently the new balance shafts have bigger nozzles and are more sturdy.

I will post an update in another 5000-10000 miles


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