Service interval

Engine, Exhaust, Drivetrain, ECU Faults and Fixes
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NoDiscoSport
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Re: Service interval

Post by NoDiscoSport » Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:26 pm

Here's a stray post from JLR on another thread that probably ought to be within the main Service Interval discussion. It clears up a potential misunderstanding that arose earlier after someone who had not experienced the problem for themselves questioned the motives of people who keep pressing JLR to come up with a proper solution.

NB. This is a recognised problem which "is still being investigated by the engineering team".
CRC@LandRover wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:01 pm
Good afternoon,

Thank you all for your comments.

Should a vehicle require a service prior to the scheduled service a booking would need to be made with an approved Land Rover retailer to enable them to investigate the concerns further.

If an oil and filter change is required due to oil dilution this should be covered under the manufacturers warranty period.

Once the vehicle is outside of the manufacturers warranty each case is reviewed to establish if Land Rover will cover the cost of this. I would like to advise that many different factors are taken into consideration during the review.

Unfortunately at present this is still being investigated by the engineering team therefore I do not have any further updates I am able to provide to you at this time.

Thanks, Stacie
17MY DS150PS 6 speed manual. Rejected as "not of satisfactory quality", "not as described", Consumer Rights Act 2015.


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Re: Service interval

Post by PhilMabbots17 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:57 am

On the Discovery owners' forum matters go from bad to worse. They already had a thread with over 400 posts and 70,000 views on the same subject as this but somebody recently started a new one https://disco5.co.uk/forum/thread1508.html . One owner has had 3 oil changes in 13,500 miles but this time when he got it back the distance to next Oil Service was somewhat different. He is a high mileage driver.

D5_normal_20181004_114141.jpg

Other thread Page 30 of 30 https://disco5.co.uk/forum/thread732-435.html
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Re: Service interval

Post by NoDiscoSport » Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:23 pm

At last a JLR dealer prepared to tell it like it is....
Discovery 5 Forum Member wrote: A couple more hours later, at handover desk yet another technician: 'sorry, the guy you spoke to earlier today is unfortunately not available atm, here's your car, and sorry we just had time to do the paintjob.'

AN ALL CAPS INTERROGATION ENSUED (I really was p****d off).

Initially the conversation was along the lines of the dead parrot sketch, but after a lot of hesitation the guy finally admitted they know about the issue, it affects many if not all 3.0L diesels (not sure about SDVs though), but they are basically left in the cold by JLR, no info how to deal with it, or whether any patch or any other corrective action is coming or at least worked on, other than to try to convince the customer the problem does not exist, or that HE is the problem (aka driving style), and talk him to pay for the extra oil service, and if he is too assertive to give him the extra oil service for free as a 'courtesy'. That is pretty much as per the JLRP00100 mentioned on this thread. Horrendous.

Honestly, this is what I suspected all the time, but could not believe any sensible company would pursue such an obviously disastrous contingency policy for its own f*ck-up. Even VW cheated the authorities and not its own customers, at least not directly.

I really can't see this ending in any other way than hugely backfiring at JLR in the form of car rejections, class action lawsuits, lost sales due to reputation sinking further etc., unless they come with a real solution quickly!
17MY DS150PS 6 speed manual. Rejected as "not of satisfactory quality", "not as described", Consumer Rights Act 2015.


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Re: Service interval

Post by Rocketman » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:13 pm

Would love to know how many people in Australia have suffered from the dreaded oil dilution issue and how you have been treated by JLR. Despite the service compliance notice being freely available, JLR Aus insist that my driving style is the problem. It’s horrendous that they are allowed to get away with this and it’s time owners started complaining to the ACCC.
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Re: Service interval

Post by adeolly » Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:28 am

So our car was built Nov 2017. I've just got the oil sample test results back (which I'll post up this weekend when my Mac stops misbehaving), but at 7800 miles oil dilution just 2.7%. Lots of 9 mile round trip school runs in there (25 minutes) as well as longer runs and around town journeys. We've never had any DPF warning lights or mechanical issues whatsoever. We have approx 7000 miles to next service showing, now decreasing at a rate of about 1.3 miles per driven mile, so an oil change at roughly 13000, which in my book is quite long enough if one values engine longevity. The 21k interval is just BS. FE is quite high, but to me that is bedding in, hopefully. No B pillar issue, or other rattles come to that.

It does guzzle AdBlue. I've not logged it exactly, but it must've got through 20 litres. As my wife gets coffee and pastries served to her whilst she reads the paper at Harwoods shiny new mega showroom and service centre in Crawley, they do the top up plus wash and vacuum the car, so she's quite happy with the fairly frequent visits, all FOC under service plan.

Whilst there have clearly been many issues for others, I can't help wonder if more recent builds, like ours, are better sorted. My wife loves the car and we're very pleased with it. It fulfills the family wagon brief very well indeed. I've got an F-Pace on order, also 2.0D, on which I'll rack the miles quite rapidly, and will do the oil tests on that for comparison.
MY18 2.0 150 HSE manual, Firenze red with narvik black roof, rear tints, 2nd row USB, blind spot monitoring, reverse traffic detection, space saver spare.


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Re: Service interval

Post by NoDiscoSport » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:13 am

adeolly wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:28 am
I can't help wonder if more recent builds, like ours, are better sorted.
That's reasonably good news adeolly, according to the average in the April spreadsheet it should have been about 3% for that mileage. Are you obtaining above average fuel economy to go with the (relatively) modest oil dilution?

Once you have got the Mac working I'll round up all the recent oil samples and republish the spreadsheet, something which is well overdue.
17MY DS150PS 6 speed manual. Rejected as "not of satisfactory quality", "not as described", Consumer Rights Act 2015.


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Re: Service interval

Post by S marty » Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:46 am

NoDiscoSport wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:13 am
Are you obtaining above average fuel economy to go with the (relatively) modest oil dilution?


This is compared to a sample across all euro6 diesel engines available in the UK ? it might be an excellent result we dont know.


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Re: Service interval

Post by NoDiscoSport » Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:20 pm

S marty wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:46 am
This is compared to a sample across all euro6 diesel engines available in the UK ? it might be an excellent result we dont know.
I refer to the latest oil sample submitted to the forum.

In the context of other oil analyses submitted to this forum, 2.7% diesel dilution in 7,799 miles (0.346% per 1,000 miles) represents a statistically modest improvement over the average of 0.384% per 1,000 miles. The sample size quoted is 26 reports received and introduced to the spreadsheet up to February 2018. All the oil reports are on here together with a copy of the spreadsheet for any current owner who feels inclined to bring it up to date.

In relation to Iron deposits, the average of the 26 samples collated is 26.07 ppm Fe per 1,000 miles (average mass of Iron / average mileage). This sample contained 293 ppm accumulated over 7,799 miles, equivalent to 37.57 ppm per 1,000 miles. This is slightly higher than my rejected vehicle's 197 ppm from 5,677 miles, which equated to 34.70 ppm per 1,000 miles. A healthy diesel engine with a 12,000 mile service interval should accumulate Iron at the rate of no more than 8.33 ppm / 1,000 miles (cautionary) or 16.67 ppm / 1,000 miles (warning level). The references for these numbers have been posted plenty of times here and elsewhere.

(Incidentally, Adeolly, the physical mass of Iron in your sump oil (total 5.525 kg) is currently about 1.6 grams, roughly the weight of 2 paperclips...)

Millers have advised that this charge of oil should be changed due to high Iron and Silicon and "cautionary" fuel dilution. The viscosity of 8.46 cSt is significantly outside the lower bound for an SAE-30 weight oil, which requires a minimum viscosity of 9.3 cSt at 100 deg C. Filling the sump with oil of this viscosity would invalidate the warranty since the STJLR.03.5007 standard describes a 0W-30 oil.

As you say, Chicken George, this could be an excellent result compared to all EU6 diesel in the UK....we just don't know. :roll:
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Re: Service interval

Post by adeolly » Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:17 pm

NoDiscoSport wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:20 pm
(Incidentally, Adeolly, the physical mass of Iron in your sump oil (total 5.525 kg) is currently about 1.6 grams, roughly the weight of 2 paperclips...)

Millers have advised that this charge of oil should be changed due to high Iron and Silicon and "cautionary" fuel dilution. The viscosity of 8.46 cSt is significantly outside the lower bound for an SAE-30 weight oil, which requires a minimum viscosity of 9.3 cSt at 100 deg C. Filling the sump with oil of this viscosity would invalidate the warranty since the STJLR.03.5007 standard describes a 0W-30 oil.

As you say, Chicken George, this could be an excellent result compared to all EU6 diesel in the UK....we just don't know. :roll:
Thanks NoDiscoSport - I was wondering how 293ppm equated to a physical item. With regard to the oil dropping out of the viscosity bounds; any clues why? Is 2.7% dilution and/or the FE enough to do that, or do we just not know.
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Re: Service interval

Post by NoDiscoSport » Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:05 pm

adeolly wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:17 pm
With regard to the oil dropping out of the viscosity bounds; any clues why? Is 2.7% dilution and/or the FE enough to do that, or do we just not know.
You've got it in one. SAE 30 oils are required to retain a "hot" (100 deg C) viscosity of between 9.3 and 12.4 cSt. The Castrol Edge Pro data sheet below shows a nominal viscosity of only 9.52 cSt although BP-Castrol told me it does vary a few points either side, while the sample of new oil I sent to Millers in July 2017 had a measured viscosity of 9.71 cSt. So, as 30 weight oils go, this isn't a particularly thick one to start with and just a few ml of diesel fuel will knock it down to SAE20. Your 2.7% dilution is equivalent to pouring 175 ml of neat diesel into a new charge of oil and this is what accounts for the 8.6 cSt viscosity found by Millers. Is that a big viscosity reduction? Is that a lot of diesel? Or is it really not that much? How long is a piece of string?

Whether or not the diluted oil by itself is capable of damaging the engine is debateable. It's possible (probable, even) that modest dilution in the range of 2% to 5% (up to 325 ml in 6.5 litres) won't do any damage to a modern engine that has been built to single-digit micron tolerances (See The Micron Factory) as this one apparently was. My own 2500 cc Toyota petrol engine runs on SAE20 as do plenty of other modern vehicles - though, come to think of it, I don't know whether there are any diesels. Maybe someone else can answer that one. So, maybe running on slightly thinner oil is no big deal. Perhaps JLR could easily have specified an SAE20. In that case, why didn't they?

This engine does have some bearing assemblies that might be extremely sensitive to loss of viscosity and I am thinking here about the balancer shafts in particular. They run at double engine speed and they are designed deliberately to create asymmetric loads on the crank case. The needle rollers of the balancer shaft bearings are constantly exposed to "out of balance" forces. Think about it: needle bearings (chosen for their high speed, rather than for their load-bearing properties), running permanently out of balance, spinning at up to 8,000 rpm. Oh, and they're not pressure fed with oil like the big ends, merely "misted" with un-pressurised, diluted lubricant. I am not saying that the diesel dilution effects on an already-thin oil is responsible for the high number of balancer shaft failures but it does make you wonder why there have been so many failures and the need for a JLR bulletin on the subject. So, maybe diluted oil is more damaging than it seemed at first...

There are very high traces of Iron and elevated Silicon - but Copper, Aluminium and Chromium are, to all intents and purposes, normal. What's going on in these engines that causes them to lose so much Iron, but none of the other, more typical, wear metals? It could be metal from piston rings (2 of these on each piston + 1 oil scraper ring), bore liners (cast Iron, would also explain the Silicon), piston skirts ("slapping" the bores during active regeneration) or, as already mentioned, high speed roller bearings on the balancer shafts or the 10 roller bearings that support the twin camshafts. I favour the bore liners but I have no supporting proof, just a hunch.

Is this amount of Iron a problem in the long term? No-one really knows. Will it diminish with time? No-one knows, all owners can do is monitor and hope for the best. I asked JLR a number of what I thought were sensible, precautionary questions at a time when my head was telling me this car could prove to be a liability but my heart was saying, "nah, it'll be alright, just take a chance and enjoy the best bits." Jaguar Land Rover said nothing. My head won the debate. These are the questions and, if JLR is reading this, I'm sure there will still be quite a few owners looking to hear something positive on this subject.
VeryDiscoSport wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:36 am
Please answer the following questions regarding the lubrication properties of the standard oil when subjected to these levels of diesel contamination:

a) What is the minimum viscosity at 100 degrees C (in centistokes, cSt) that the engine lubricant must maintain at all times in order to ensure adequate lubrication of all the moving parts?
b) Describe any test results that JLR has obtained to demonstrate the Ingenium engine's ability to withstand FIO dilution levels above 2% when starting with a new charge of SAE 0W-30 ACEA C2 / STJLR.03.5007 oil?
c) What is the expected useful service life of the 2.0 litre Ingenium turbo diesel when subjected to continuous cycles of oil dilution in line with the current software programming of the SIM? ( i.e. when FIO rises continuously from 0% to 6.1% every 10,000 miles, assuming STJLR.03.5007 oil is used)
d) Please provide guidance on wear metal levels that JLR consider would be acceptable to achieve the stated useful service life of the engine.
e) Regarding ways to compensate for loss of viscosity due to high FIO levels - What would be the maximum viscosity at 100 degrees C (in centistokes, cSt) of a synthetic multi-grade oil suitable for use in the Ingenium turbo diesel? (e.g. would it be acceptable to switch to SAE 0W-40 ?)
f) What, if any, fuel penalty would result from the use of such oil?

Castrol Edge Pro E 0W-30 STJLR.03.5007 Spec sheet.pdf
(37.25 KiB) Downloaded 27 times

17MY DS150PS 6 speed manual. Rejected as "not of satisfactory quality", "not as described", Consumer Rights Act 2015.


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