Service interval

Engine, Exhaust, Drivetrain, ECU Faults and Fixes
Wash.FTM
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Re: Service interval

Post by Wash.FTM » Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:28 pm

Hi Folks, I contacted my dealer / supplier of my ds today and said I wish to reject the car due to " not being as described". The dealer has got back to me stating as its more than 30 days since delivery then they are not able to do a rejection. They have offered to buy the car back at current market value. What should my next move be in regards to this. I believe a rejection is still possible ( I took ownership august/Sept 2017 as a replacement for previously rejected ds) as the fault is a known fault by both JLR and the dealer.
Please correct me if I'm wrong
15plate ds hse manual green rejected due to them not sorting out problem. Exchanged for 16 plate ds hse luxury auto with black pack.


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PhilMabbots17
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Re: Service interval

Post by PhilMabbots17 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:25 pm

Wash.FTM wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:28 pm
Hi Folks, I contacted my dealer / supplier of my ds today and said I wish to reject the car due to " not being as described". The dealer has got back to me stating as its more than 30 days since delivery then they are not able to do a rejection. They have offered to buy the car back at current market value. What should my next move be in regards to this. I believe a rejection is still possible ( I took ownership august/Sept 2017 as a replacement for previously rejected ds) as the fault is a known fault by both JLR and the dealer.
Please correct me if I'm wrong
It' not up to the dealer to "do a rejection" or otherwise and there's a lot of misunderstanding about this process that dealers exploit.

Remember that the owner first rejects the car using the applicable provision of the CRA 2015, after which it becomes the supplier's responsibility to refund what was paid, less (only in the case of a car) the value of any wear and tear. The supplier can't "reject the rejection", as it were, for it is simply an assertion of the customer's rights under the Act. However, the supplier could refuse to acknowledge the rejection, perhaps to test the customer's conviction, but this could be a risky strategy to adopt with a determined and resourceful customer who knew his/her rights, especially if legally represented.

The justification for this particular rejection would be that the DS diesel has a known fault (one that was there when it was manufactured) which means that it is "not of satisfactory quality". Next, they misrepresented the service intervals, because changing the oil and filter (the only practical thing that requires doing at 21K miles) has been required three times already in a car that's only 2/3 of the way to the advertised first service. This will translate into thousands of pounds in future bills which the owner wasn't made aware of when it was sold. Therefore it is "not as described".

Having rejected it, the customer makes the car available for collection, it's then the original owner's responsibility to recover their property and return any money that is still owed. Rejection signals that the customer is demanding rescission of the original contract. If the supplier says that this is impossible due to the time involved, the customer could mention Salt v Stratstone in which the high court ruled that, in relation to the supply of a motor vehicle where misrepresentation had occurred, time elapsed since original contract is not a barrier to rescission. Apart from the onus on the purchaser to show that any defects were present at the time of manufacture, I don't think there is anything to prevent a successful rejection under the CRA 2015 for up to 6 years. I read that on one of the consumer sites but I can't quote the specific source just at the moment.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9397&p=97634#p97634
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PhilMabbots17
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Re: Service interval

Post by PhilMabbots17 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:27 pm

I think this summarises the timing provisions:

Up to 30 days -
the customer has an automatic right to reject under ss 9, 10 or 11.

> 30 days up to 6 months -
wear and tear can be deducted for the use of a car.

> 6 months up to 6 years -
the customer must be able to show that the fault existed at time of purchase, and
wear and tear can be deducted for the use of any product.
BBC
What if I bought something more than six months ago?

Even after six months, you still have a right to ask for a repair or a replacement. But the retailer now has a right to deduct some money for the use you have had out of the goods. If the product is a car, the retailer can deduct money after just a month.
In the longer term there are still protections, but they depend on the kind of product, and the price paid. These protections extend for up to 6 years in England and Wales, and 5 years in Scotland.
Which
The first six months
If you discover the fault within the first six months of having the product, it is presumed to have been there since the time you took ownership of it - unless the retailer can prove otherwise.
During this time, it's up to the retailer to prove that the fault wasn't there when you bought it - it's not up to you to prove that it was.

Six months or more
If a fault develops after the first six months, the burden is on you to prove that the product was faulty at the time you took ownership of it. In practice, this may require some form of expert report, opinion or evidence of similar problems across the product range.
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Wash.FTM
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Re: Service interval

Post by Wash.FTM » Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:00 pm

PhilMabbots17 wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:27 pm
I think this summarises the timing provisions:

Up to 30 days -
the customer has an automatic right to reject under ss 9, 10 or 11.

> 30 days up to 6 months -
wear and tear can be deducted for the use of a car.

> 6 months up to 6 years -
the customer must be able to show that the fault existed at time of purchase, and
wear and tear can be deducted for the use of any product.
BBC
What if I bought something more than six months ago?

Even after six months, you still have a right to ask for a repair or a replacement. But the retailer now has a right to deduct some money for the use you have had out of the goods. If the product is a car, the retailer can deduct money after just a month.
In the longer term there are still protections, but they depend on the kind of product, and the price paid. These protections extend for up to 6 years in England and Wales, and 5 years in Scotland.
Which
The first six months
If you discover the fault within the first six months of having the product, it is presumed to have been there since the time you took ownership of it - unless the retailer can prove otherwise.
During this time, it's up to the retailer to prove that the fault wasn't there when you bought it - it's not up to you to prove that it was.

Six months or more
If a fault develops after the first six months, the burden is on you to prove that the product was faulty at the time you took ownership of it. In practice, this may require some form of expert report, opinion or evidence of similar problems across the product range.

Cheers once again. I have told them I will go down the legal route if they so wish and they have responded by saying I will have a definitive answer by the 9th jan.
The car had its 1st oil change about 8 to 10 weeks into my ownership, so I am covered by the 30 day to 6 month scenario.
15plate ds hse manual green rejected due to them not sorting out problem. Exchanged for 16 plate ds hse luxury auto with black pack.


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Zedman
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Re: Service interval

Post by Zedman » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:41 am

I had a very interesting conversation with an engine designer at JLR before Christmas and he told me that the company were in the process of applying for a patent that would 'mitigate' the oil dilution problem. He was obviously cagey and wouldn't elaborate but he seemed very confident that it would stop the Adblue getting into the sump and so stopping the dilution.
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Woolmeister
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Re: Service interval

Post by Woolmeister » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:44 am

AdBlue doesn’t get into the sump; Diesel does. If the JLR Engine Designer think it's AdBlue getting into the sump then that's possibly where they're going wrong. ;)

I suspect the patent application is simply just a modification to the service due algorithm.

Make no mistake, it’s highly unlikely that this problem can be resolved without wholesale changes to the exhaust system architecture.
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Zedman
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Re: Service interval

Post by Zedman » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:34 am

Woolmeister wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:44 am
AdBlue doesn’t get into the sump; Diesel does. If the JLR Engine Designer think it's AdBlue getting into the sump then that's possibly where they're going wrong. ;)

I suspect the patent application is simply just a modification to the service due algorithm.

Make no mistake, it’s highly unlikely that this problem can be resolved without wholesale changes to the exhaust system architecture.
Sorry that was my typo, of course it is the diesel diluting the oil.
MY17 HSE Black Auto in Fuji White. Ordered 24th April 2017. Build date 9th June 2017. Del 1st August.

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Chilliblu
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Re: Service interval

Post by Chilliblu » Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:43 pm

Well latest update from JLR on my oil dilution. Service light came on after 10,000. Booked in with dealer and £180 later an oil and filter change. Asked about oil dilution issue and if I had to pay for oil change? Dealer not interested but said i should contact JLR.
Phoned JLR customer services and got a call back saying they would talk to the technical department and come back to me. week later they came back and yes, surprise,surprise it was my driving style. Told I was doing to many short trips even though i have done 10,000 miles in 6 months. I explained i do quite a bit of motorway driving so the next explanation was I could be driving too fast for the regeneration to work properly.!!!! I usually set the cruise around 70 so explained this was what a normal car was supposed to do. The next thing was an explanation that I should not interrupt a DPF regen cycle but when asked how i am supposed to know when one is taking place there was no answer.
JLR just seem to have a long list of excuses for every situation. They even told me this was a problem with all cars that had a DPF, and there engines were no different to anyone else's???
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Service interval number 4 at 26k

Post by Iamthemanny » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:50 pm

My car is 18 months old. Had from new.

26k on clock and just come up saying it needs another oil change. This will be number 4 !!! :oops:

To be fair my dealer has always followed the JLR100 so apart from 21k service all oil things done via good will.

However, am I in a minority with this amount of oil changes.

I use eco all the time. Long and short distances and about 1k or over a month.
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Extra optional extra included :lol: Oil dilution issues thrown in as "Good will" due to my "Driving style" :( :( :(


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Badgerface
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Re: Service interval

Post by Badgerface » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:17 pm

Wash.FTM wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:00 pm
Cheers once again. I have told them I will go down the legal route if they so wish and they have responded by saying I will have a definitive answer by the 9th jan.
How have you got on with this? Has the dealer responded definitively within the timescale that they set themselves as they said they would, or not? What solution have they offered you? (Or not as the case may be!)
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MY13 HSE Luxury FL2 2.2 SD4 190ps - Baltic Blue with NO Oil dilution issues whatsoever!
MY12 HSE FL2. 2.2 SD4 190ps - Sumatra Black - Gone


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