Service interval

Engine, Exhaust, Drivetrain, ECU Faults and Fixes
akp303
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Re: Service interval

Post by akp303 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:50 am

NoDiscoSport wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:20 am

The dilution problem is commonly misunderstood as a consequence of short journeys. That's convenient for JLR because it diverts attention away from the disclosures in JLRP00100. The following post from a year ago addresses a much wider problem because that was how I drove my DS (60-70 mph in top gear) and my dilution was about 1% for every 1000 miles. I think the dealer being quoted had a very good understanding of the problem.
What are the disclosures in JLRP00100?

So does this mean that the engine is not getting hot enough ever to have the DPF regenerated? If so, is there a known optimum temperature for this to work?

I will do a bit more research on this before deciding. Honestly, if I read this thread prior I wouldn't have placed the order...too much of work even to be sure about the reliability.


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Re: Service interval

Post by NoDiscoSport » Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:59 pm

akp303 wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:50 am
NoDiscoSport wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:20 am

The dilution problem is commonly misunderstood as a consequence of short journeys. That's convenient for JLR because it diverts attention away from the disclosures in JLRP00100. The following post from a year ago addresses a much wider problem because that was how I drove my DS (60-70 mph in top gear) and my dilution was about 1% for every 1000 miles. I think the dealer being quoted had a very good understanding of the problem.
What are the disclosures in JLRP00100?

So does this mean that the engine is not getting hot enough ever to have the DPF regenerated? If so, is there a known optimum temperature for this to work?

I will do a bit more research on this before deciding. Honestly, if I read this thread prior I wouldn't have placed the order...too much of work even to be sure about the reliability.
Because the inlet doesn't reach the required temperature (280 to 300 deg C) during normal driving the DPF is unable to regenerate passively on the Ingenium DS (letter from JLR, 24 October 2017). Furthermore, they said that the normal driving pattern required to keep the DPF clean must include some drives of over an hour.

Active regenerations are the only means of clearing soot from the DPF and these are required every 180 to 560 miles according to JLR's official response on the honestjohn website. In my experience (including photographs of OBD) a DS being driven regularly at 60-70mph performed an active regeneration every 203 miles.

The temperature required at the DPF inlet for active regeneration to occur is 580 to 600 deg C. This temperature must be maintained by post injection of diesel into the engine cylinders for periods of up to 45 minutes. That's only my calculation but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to link the DPF regeneration time with JLR's insistence that there are some drives of "over an hour" in a normal driving mix.

These, to the best of my knowledge, are the numbers that are required to make full sense of the text of JLRP00100

PS.: On this exhaust the DPF monolith has a selective catalytic reductive coating to facilitate NOx after treatment. Any references to the SCRF should therefore be taken to include DPF and vice versa.
PPS.: All these points have been made further up the thread complete with supporting evidence, i.e. clips of letter from JLR, photos, etc. If you need a specific piece of documentary evidence feel free to send me a PM
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Dashnine
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Re: Service interval

Post by Dashnine » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:26 pm

akp303 wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:50 am
NoDiscoSport wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:20 am

The dilution problem is commonly misunderstood as a consequence of short journeys. That's convenient for JLR because it diverts attention away from the disclosures in JLRP00100. The following post from a year ago addresses a much wider problem because that was how I drove my DS (60-70 mph in top gear) and my dilution was about 1% for every 1000 miles. I think the dealer being quoted had a very good understanding of the problem.
What are the disclosures in JLRP00100?

So does this mean that the engine is not getting hot enough ever to have the DPF regenerated? If so, is there a known optimum temperature for this to work?

I will do a bit more research on this before deciding. Honestly, if I read this thread prior I wouldn't have placed the order...too much of work even to be sure about the reliability.
Effectively, passive regeneration will never happen, regardless of the journeys you do, as admitted by JLR.

If you do short, town based journeys, active regeneration will never happen as you won't be going fast enough, for long enough. So the SCRF will clog up and never get cleared out = yellow warning light (saying take it for a long drive so active regen can work), then red warning light & limp mode (back to dealer for a forced regen). The red light 'can' (not 'will') come on 2.1 seconds after the yellow light. It might start an active regen when conditions are right, but if you end the journey before it's finished the SCRF will clog up again sooner as its not completed, so you get more active regens overall.

Longer journeys allow the active regen to work and clear out the soot from the SCRF so all well and good you might think, BUT it injects diesel into the engine to burn in the exhaust, which a.) trashes your fuel consumption and b.) dilutes the engine oil, possibly/probably trashing the engine long term (the balancer shaft issues we see may be related to this).
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Re: Service interval

Post by akp303 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:43 pm

Dashnine wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:26 pm


The dilution problem is commonly misunderstood as a consequence of short journeys. That's convenient for JLR because it diverts attention away from the disclosures in JLRP00100. The following post from a year ago addresses a much wider problem because that was how I drove my DS (60-70 mph in top gear) and my dilution was about 1% for every 1000 miles. I think the dealer being quoted had a very good understanding of the problem.
NoDiscoSport wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:20 am


Effectively, passive regeneration will never happen, regardless of the journeys you do, as admitted by JLR.

Longer journeys allow the active regen to work and clear out the soot from the SCRF so all well and good you might think, BUT it injects diesel into the engine to burn in the exhaust, which a.) trashes your fuel consumption and b.) dilutes the engine oil, possibly/probably trashing the engine long term (the balancer shaft issues we see may be related to this).
Thanks, both for the answers.

Considering this is a year old notice, would it be too optimistic for us to assume that this would have been solved by now?


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Re: Service interval

Post by Dashnine » Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:02 pm

akp303 wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:43 pm
Dashnine wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:26 pm


The dilution problem is commonly misunderstood as a consequence of short journeys. That's convenient for JLR because it diverts attention away from the disclosures in JLRP00100. The following post from a year ago addresses a much wider problem because that was how I drove my DS (60-70 mph in top gear) and my dilution was about 1% for every 1000 miles. I think the dealer being quoted had a very good understanding of the problem.
NoDiscoSport wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:20 am


Effectively, passive regeneration will never happen, regardless of the journeys you do, as admitted by JLR.

Longer journeys allow the active regen to work and clear out the soot from the SCRF so all well and good you might think, BUT it injects diesel into the engine to burn in the exhaust, which a.) trashes your fuel consumption and b.) dilutes the engine oil, possibly/probably trashing the engine long term (the balancer shaft issues we see may be related to this).
Thanks, both for the answers.

Considering this is a year old notice, would it be too optimistic for us to assume that this would have been solved by now?
Not yet, there is a rumour (heard from JLR staff that I and another forum member know) that exhaust lagging is to be extended further back down the exhaust to cover the SCRF, making it hot enough for passive regen. We were unsure of the timing, it doesn't look like it made it onto MY19, as a Landmark owner kindly photograhed under their car for us. So it looks like (if it's true or does indeed make it to production) that it'll be on the MY20 facelift DS due next year. Or they put a better engineering fix in, like changing the exhaust architecture for MY20, maybe putting a separate DPF nearer the turbo.
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NoDiscoSport
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Re: Service interval

Post by NoDiscoSport » Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:11 pm

NoDiscoSport wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:17 am
S marty wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:50 am
Im looking in the list of topix drawings. Not at any document. In that list there is a non dpf exhaust system
There is, you are right. There's better evidence though, in the form of the promotional videos for the new system. Both of these were uploaded by JLR to youtube on 27th April 2015.





Four months before EU6b became mandatory for all new cars (not new types, that was a year earlier) they had at least a virtual reality mock-up of something that looks like the SCRF that made it into production. So why, almost 3 months after this, were they still saying that the DEF injection was downstream of the DPF? Selective Catalyst Reduction
The document has a diagram showing something that looks similar in size and shape to the SCRF in the video. Yet, inches away there is this description.
The Selective Catalyst Reduction (SCR) system is an exhaust gas aftertreatment solution used to reduce the nitrogen oxides within the exhaust gas. For this purpose, a specified amount of Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) is injected into the exhaust system, downstream of the DPF.
It's proof of nothing except that there are video mock-ups, a diagram and some text that contradicts it. Still seems odd though, so close to the roll-out date. Then, just as news of the VW prosecution was reaching the UK on Friday 18th September 2015, there is this:

New recall - inter cooler coupling
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1613
http://www.evoqueownersclub.co.uk/forum ... nator.html

Spiderman's comment on the Evoque forum on 20th September 2015 at 12:11 is particularly interesting.

As far as I knew the resonator and muffler are both within the exhaust system which stops both noise and lowers the emissions. I may be wrong but if this is correct then the suppliers of the exhaust system need to get a grip with supply.

While the delivery embargo was in place for the AJ200 vehicles, JLR produced and distributed an FAQ sheet on emissions which my dealer received on Monday, 21st September, 2015 with more than a little bemusement. See the next post for a full copy.

Has Land Rover used Emissions defeat devices in their cars

Regarding the Bosch ECU. Apparently it is supplied completely blank and can be re-flashed up to 14 times:

Electronic Engine Controls - INGENIUM I4 2.0L Diesel wrote: DESCRIPTION - Engine Control Module (ECM)

The ECM is located behind the secondary bulkhead panel in the centerline of the vehicle. The ECM is attached to a bracket with four screws which is secured to the bulkhead panel. The ECM receives inputs from various sensors and outputs reference voltages and signal information to other sensors for engine control.

The ECM receives and processes information from the following input sources:
Crankshaft Position (CKP) sensor
Camshaft Position (CMP) sensor
Brake pedal switch
Glow plug control module
Ambient Air Temperature (AAT) sensor
Engine cooling fan control module
Fuel Pump Driver Module (FPDM)
If the vehicle is equipped with manual transmission:
- Clutch pedal position sensor
- Clutch Bottom Of Travel (BOT) switch
On EU6 market vehicles:
- Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) tank module
- DEF heater control unit
- Post Selective Catalyst Reduction (SCR) nitrogen oxide (NOx) sensor module
Transmission Control Switch (TCS) - Automatic transmission only
Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) sensor - electric thermostat housing
ECT sensor - Radiator outlet
Heated Oxygen Sensor (HO2S)
Water In Fuel (WIF) sensor
Fuel rail Pressure Control Valve (PCV)
Fuel Rail Pressure (FRP) sensor
Fuel temperature sensor
Mass Air Flow and Temperature (MAFT) sensor
Electric throttle
Cylinder head temperature sensor
Cylinder block temperature sensor
Oil pressure and temperature sensor
Variable coolant pump - shroud position
Variable Geometry Turbocharger (VGT) vane actuator
Pre-catalyst exhaust gas temperature sensor
Manifold Absolute Pressure and Temperature (MAPT) sensor
Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) valve - High Pressure (HP)
Charge air temperature sensor (EGR cooler outlet)
Oil pressure control solenoid
Exhaust gas temperature sensor - post catalytic converter
EGR pressure sensor - Low Pressure (LP) EGR
Brake vacuum sensor.

The ECM is connected to the vehicle harnesses via two connectors. The ECM contains data processors and memory microchips. The output signals to the actuators and sensors are in the form of ground paths provided by driver circuits within the ECM. The ECM driver circuits produce heat during normal operation and dissipate this heat via the ribbed casing.

The ECM performs self-diagnostic routines and stores fault codes in its memory. These fault codes and diagnostics can be accessed using the approved diagnostic system. If the ECM is to be replaced, the new ECM is supplied 'blank' and must be configured to the vehicle using an approved diagnostic system. A 'flash' electrically erasable programmable read only memory allows the ECM to be externally configured, using an approved diagnostic system, with market specific or new tune information up to 14 times. If a fifteenth update is required the ECM must be replaced. The current engine tune data can be accessed and read using an approved diagnostic system.

When a new ECM is equipped, it must be synchronized to the Central Junction Box (CJB) and the Electric Steering Column Lock (ESCL) control module for immobilization purposes using an approved diagnostic system. ECM's cannot be 'swapped' between vehicles.

The ECM is connected to the engine sensors which allow it to monitor the engine operating conditions. The ECM processes these signals and determines the actions necessary to maintain optimum engine performance in terms of driveability, fuel efficiency and exhaust emissions. The memory of the ECM is programmed with instructions for how to control the engine, this is known as the strategy. The memory also contains data in the form of maps which the ECM uses as a basis for fueling and emission control. By comparing the information from the sensors to the data in the maps, the ECM is able to calculate the various output requirements. The ECM contains an adaptive strategy which updates the system when components vary due to production tolerances or ageing.

Some sensors receive a regulated voltage supplied by the ECM. This avoids incorrect signals caused by voltage drop during cranking.

The ECM receives a vehicle speed signal on the High Speed Controller Area Network (HS-CAN) powertrain systems bus from the Anti-lock Brake System (ABS) control module. Vehicle speed is an important input to the ECM strategies. The ABS control module derives the speed signal from the ABS wheel speed sensors. The frequency of this signal changes according to road speed. The ECM uses this signal to determine the following:

* When to permit speed control operation
* To control the operation of the speed control system
* Implementation of the idle strategy when the vehicle is stationary.

We know there was some kind of issue with the Charge Air Cooler which stopped shipments of DS and Evoque models. Could this have affected the "strategy" being used by the Bosch ECU to control emissions? Here's the sensor that monitors the piece in question and reports back to the ECU.

CAC Temp Sensor.PNG

The charge air cooler temperature sensor is located in the outlet of the charge air cooler. The sensor is a quick fit component which is pushed into the charge air cooler port and rotated through 90 degrees to lock. An O-ring seal fitted to the charge air cooler temperature sensor prevents leakage.
The temperature sensor is an NTC type sensor which receives a 5V reference voltage from the ECM and returns a signal proportional to the intake air temperature.
On the one hand according to Q529 (see below) there's a suspected "poor weld" that might lose pressure, while next to it there's a "quick fit [plastic] component which is pushed into the charge air cooler port and rotated through 90 degrees to lock" with nothing more than an O-ring seal to prevent leakage.
Maybe this is related to the Q529 problem that apparently stopped shipments of Evoques and DS vehicles on or around 18th September 2015?

Q529.png

More on the Evoque delays here: http://www.evoqueownersclub.co.uk/forum ... voque.html
17MY DS150PS 6 speed manual. Rejected as "not of satisfactory quality", "not as described", Consumer Rights Act 2015.


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S marty
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Re: Service interval

Post by S marty » Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:37 pm

I know not were you are attempting to go now. baffling waffle.

but a charge cooler is on the air inlet side of the engine, expensive things they are too , you dont want to be replacing them very often


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Re: Service interval

Post by NoDiscoSport » Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:50 pm

S marty wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:37 pm
I know not were you are attempting to go now. baffling waffle.

but a charge cooler is on the air inlet side of the engine, expensive things they are too , you dont want to be replacing them very often
Mods, please keep an eye on this one. I fear he's treading a line that verges on attempted censorship again.

CG, just for the record, how many times have you been banned?
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Dashnine
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Re: Service interval

Post by Dashnine » Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:47 pm

NoDiscoSport wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:50 pm
S marty wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:37 pm
I know not were you are attempting to go now. baffling waffle.

but a charge cooler is on the air inlet side of the engine, expensive things they are too , you dont want to be replacing them very often
Mods, please keep an eye on this one. I fear he's treading a line that verges on attempted censorship again.

CG, just for the record, how many times have you been banned?
I must admit, I’m a bit baffled on the direction of this one, its almost like a conspiracy hunt and I don’t get the implication? That the faulty weld in the resonator was a cover to get the ECU reflashed to remove the cheat device code? A bit harsh on the resonator supplier.

We’ve had plenty of engineers over the years flashing hundreds of steering ECUs in compounds over a weekend to update the code, I’m not sure such an extravagant cover story would be required.

Anyway, whatever happened to free speech and having an opinion!

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Re: Service interval

Post by PhilMabbots17 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:07 pm

Early in September 2015 someone had already whispered to HJ that these vehicles were being quarantined because of an EU6 AdBlue Certification issue. Who outside the company would have known about that? It's not exactly the sort of thing that you just make up, If that was the cause, why couldn't they just say so?

Quarantine20150907.PNG

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