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Service interval

1M views 3K replies 215 participants last post by  Past master 
#1 ·
My DS, first registered in November 2015 has covered 8910 miles.
A few days ago, on the InControl App, a Service Due Alert message appeared advising that my car is due for a service.
This coincided with an occasional message (on first start up of the day) saying that the oil level is low. This message did not stay, but disappeared once the tyre setting message had been displayed. I checked the oil level on the dipstick and it is showing full.
I spoke to my dealer who says that maybe due to the type of driving I have been doing (!!) the car needs an oil and filter change.
Anybody else had a similar experience?
 

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#277 ·
The field actions related to service information appear to be:-
- Q627v4 - No 'Engine Service' Message Displayed In The Message Center
- N010v5 - 'Service Required' Message Not Displayed
- N020v4 - Service Warning Message Not Displayed

My car has just come back from an extensive period at the dealers. It was booked in specifically so the first two 'campaigns' were actioned. Yet I have no menu option to display service information!

Now awaiting feedback from dealer.

Another visit would be another day(s) off the road, which adds to Which's official "Don't Buy", largely due to days off the road.

My "days off road" is already approaching 4 weeks over 12-13 months, though to be fair there are some special circumstances.
 
#279 ·
Just to add at 9,000 miles have had a service required countdown message appear. Dealer has advised that there is a known problem with 16/17MY vehicles requiring an oil and filter change earlier than the first service interval and this will be provided under warranty. At least while it's in DAB fix and AdBlue top up can be sorted at the same time.
 
#280 ·
henryhorse said:
Just to add at 9,000 miles have had a service required countdown message appear. Dealer has advised that there is a known problem with 16/17MY vehicles requiring an oil and filter change earlier than the first service interval and this will be provided under warranty. At least while it's in DAB fix and AdBlue top up can be sorted at the same time.
Henry, you would be an ideal candidate to have laboratory oil analysis done now, in order to obtain another set of wear metal fugures and, equally importantly, an accurate dilution percentage in a car where the Service Message has just been triggered. Please consider doing this for your own benefit and then make the numbers available for others to see. I am going to start another thread just for posting analysis data, starting with a sample of brand new Castrol Edge Professional 0W-30 C2, then my own results. I'll post the link here.
 
#281 ·
Mike Martin said:
The field actions related to service information appear to be:-
- Q627v4 - No 'Engine Service' Message Displayed In The Message Center
- N010v5 - 'Service Required' Message Not Displayed
- N020v4 - Service Warning Message Not Displayed

My car has just come back from an extensive period at the dealers. It was booked in specifically so the first two 'campaigns' were actioned. Yet I have no menu option to display service information!

Now awaiting feedback from dealer.

Another visit would be another day(s) off the road, which adds to Which's official "Don't Buy", largely due to days off the road.

My "days off road" is already approaching 4 weeks over 12-13 months, though to be fair there are some special circumstances.
Mike, you'll need at least one more day off road when N025 is rolled out...as we all shall.
 
#283 ·
Can anyone explain to me how the figures obtained in an independent lab can have any influence on LR honouring their 'warranty' oil replacement procedure? As in - where in the documents customers have access to is there any mention of oil dilution and other chemical stuff? As far as my dealer is aware, there is no such procedure and I am just wondering whether to escalate the matter to LR headquarters in my particular case.

Just to remind - I am having the counter re-set this week and any oil change would be on my expense, dealer refuses to acknowledge any problems.

Thanks!
 
G
#284 ·
Dealers have all been told by LR about the potential need for early oil change & confirmed that it is to be carried out under warranty. This is what my dealer told me.

If my dealer was giving me the same bull as yours I'd be contacting LR about it and changing dealers
 
#285 ·
screech said:
Can anyone explain to me how the figures obtained in an independent lab can have any influence on LR honouring their 'warranty' oil replacement procedure? As in - where in the documents customers have access to is there any mention of oil dilution and other chemical stuff? As far as my dealer is aware, there is no such procedure and I am just wondering whether to escalate the matter to LR headquarters in my particular case.

Just to remind - I am having the counter re-set this week and any oil change would be on my expense, dealer refuses to acknowledge any problems.

Thanks!
Hopefully this covers your questions:

It is not a "warranty" issue because if they used that word you could infer that they admit responsibility for a fault with the vehicles. For obvious reasons they can't afford to do that. Instead, if you take this up with CRC, and you can make a convincing case that you have been misled by sales and marketing materials into believing that the car would actually go 21000 miles/ 2 years between services, and you can show that it needs an interim service now, then they'll offer to contribute 100% towards the cost of the interim oil change as a "goodwill gesture". To enable dealers to manage future requests for a free oil service uniformly, their methodology has been flow-charted and dealers will simply follow the lines.

To prevent engines from suddenly seizing up left, right and centre, they had to put some mechanism in place to alert drivers that their oil has got too much diesel in it. Hence N010 and N020. But this is all predicated on an assumption that 7% is a safe level of diesel dilution - in any case it's only an estimate - see posts passim. Many people disagree strongly with the assumption that this is a safe figure - the consensus from many companies including BP-Castrol themselves is that 2% is the maximum figure for diesel dilution. So who would you believe where there is such a wide disparity? I didn't know either, so I did the only thing any sensible adult would do and I got a laboratory test so I could see a) the actual dilution level and b) whether or not the level present had already started to cause engine wear. I then presented my report to JLR and they agreed immediately to pay for my oil change. No quibbling, they just accepted it. What we are discussing here is way beyond the knowledge and remit of the average dealer.

If you have an oil test done, please post the results here:

https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=6132&p=68228#p68228
 
#286 ·
VeryDiscoSport has posted a lot of informative information on oil dilution.

I had my oil changed "under warranty" at 7000 miles after I got a warning showing on In control App.

Still cannot see any service due info on the car menu - only Adblue range. All Topix updates were done.....

My previous cars had oil changed every year and this will happen again of course when it reaches it's 2 year age.

If I keep the car a yearly change will be factored in but worried reading the new dilution thread is this enough ?

Is there a problem with the the Ingenium engine ?
 
#288 ·
Thanks VDS,

I will look for a lab that does oil tests here in Poland. Frankly, I've never even heard of the problem before. With all previous cars I've done my oil changes on a yearly basis and so far have been happy. I planned on keeping my DS for at least 6 years, 5 of which are covered with LR warranty. Hopefully if the engine seizes, or blows up, they will cover the cost within that period. I will see what happens if I question the dealer a bit more. They are such a pain to deal with... Unfortunately only a handful of authorised dealers in Poland.
 
#289 ·
simon said:
What's N025 ? If you have a TOPIx subscription could you post on here please ? No worries if you don't want to of course ;)
I posted that information a few days ago after paying for a 24 hour Topix subscription. It confirmed what I'd learned - N025 is a new campaign with a planned roll-out date of 4th August. If a dealer knows about N025 he should also be able to explain the bigger picture of diesel dilution and how they are going to deal with it. But he'll be under the impression that all is well as long as the oil is changed when the Service Message requests it. In my view this is an assumption that must be robustly challenged until it can be shown by laboratory testing that 2% to 6% (or more) of diesel dilution does not cause premature engine wear. At present the only available evidence points in the opposite direction.

https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5379&p=68015&hilit=N025#p680156
 
#290 ·
Thanks again. Missed that. So this affects 15MY and 16MY only according to the doc. Are you saying 17MY is also affected / potentially affected ?

Sorry if I've missed the answer to this - there's a lot of thread to get through and my memory isn't what it was ;)
 
#291 ·
simon said:
Thanks again. Missed that. So this affects 15MY and 16MY only according to the doc. Are you saying 17MY is also affected / potentially affected ?

Sorry if I've missed the answer to this - there's a lot of thread to get through and my memory isn't what it was ;)
No problem at all, Simon. This is important and should be properly promulgated, it's just a pity this isn't coming from JLR. So here's the full list of issues currently drawn together under a service compliance notification (SCN) dealing with oil dilution. The whole thing runs across 15MY to 17MY, the details are:

Failure of vehicles to show Service Indicator Message H007, N010, N020

L405 Range Rover 15-16MY
L494 RR Sport 15-16 MY
L538 Evoque 16MY
L550 Disco Sport 16MY
X152 F-Type 16-17MY
X260 XF 16MY
X760 XE 16MY
X351 XJ 16MY

Oil Dilution and Early Service Requirements N025

L405 Range Rover 16-17MY 3.0L diesel EU6b & NAS markets
L494 Range Rover Sport 16-17MY 3.0L diesel EU6b & NAS markets
L462 All-New Discovery 17MY 3.0L diesel EU6b & NAS markets
L538 Evoque 16-17MY with 2.0L diesel EU6b & NAS markets
L550 Disco Sport 16-17MY with 2.0L diesel EU6b & NAS markets

Hope that clears up any questions about scope.
 
#292 ·
ADI said:
VeryDiscoSport has posted a lot of informative information on oil dilution.

I had my oil changed "under warranty" at 7000 miles after I got a warning showing on In control App.

Still cannot see any service due info on the car menu - only Adblue range. All Topix updates were done.....

My previous cars had oil changed every year and this will happen again of course when it reaches it's 2 year age.

If I keep the car a yearly change will be factored in but worried reading the new dilution thread is this enough ?

Is there a problem with the the Ingenium engine ?
No, it's not Ingenium, it's how and where it is installed. What a very senior technical source acknowledged recently is that full regeneration takes longer on the affected cars than other Ingenium platforms such as XE and XF, which means there is a higher probability that the regeneration process will get interrupted because the "customer" terminates his journey too soon.

Due to hardware and architectural differences, some cars, such as the Discovery Sport, require a "much higher" amount of post-injection to achieve the necessary particulate burn rate and these factors combine to significantly increase the Fuel In Oil contribution for each regeneration event, in turn leading to a faster accumulation of diesel in the oil. When dilution by volume reaches 6.1% drivers of cars which have a functioning SIM message (but not unmodified ones) will be told to go for the interim oil change. If you carry on driving with high oil dilution this will result in engine failure.

Your eligibility for the free oil changes stems from the fact that a clause in the handbook about the effect of your driving style on the actual service intervals achievable wasn't included in the sales and marketing literature, hard copy or internet, that was being distributed prior to 1st June 2017. That is why, and I am sorry to be the bearer of this news, if your warranty commenced after this date, when your car demands an oil change due to diesel contamination before 21000 miles or 2 years, there will be no offer of financial assistance.

Now I don't know about you guys, but I think it's pretty rich to even consider blaming my driving style for something that they are now candidly admitting internally is a consequence of the architecture of the installation, the larger amount of post-injection required to achieve full regeneration, the increased FIO for each event and the resultant acceleration of the amount of diesel getting into the oil.

So, short answer - no, I think the Ingenium is a fine piece of engineering, it's just not being treated properly as things stand.
 
#293 ·
#294 ·
Just as a matter of interest, Ford are also having diesel regeneration problems on the Transit engine and I think I have also heard that VW have had some issues so the problem is probably wider that we think.
 
#296 ·
VeryDiscoSport said:
No, it's not Ingenium, it's how and where it is installed. What a very senior technical source acknowledged recently is that full regeneration takes longer on the affected cars than other Ingenium platforms such as XE and XF, which means there is a higher probability that the regeneration process will get interrupted because the "customer" terminates his journey too soon.

Due to hardware and architectural differences, some cars, such as the Discovery Sport, require a "much higher" amount of post-injection to achieve the necessary particulate burn rate and these factors combine to significantly increase the Fuel In Oil contribution for each regeneration event, in turn leading to a faster accumulation of diesel in the oil. When dilution by volume reaches 6.1% drivers of cars which have a functioning SIM message (but not unmodified ones) will be told to go for the interim oil change. If you carry on driving with high oil dilution this will result in engine failure.

Your eligibility for the free oil changes stems from the fact that a clause in the handbook about the effect of your driving style on the actual service intervals achievable wasn't included in the sales and marketing literature, hard copy or internet, that was being distributed prior to 1st June 2017. That is why, and I am sorry to be the bearer of this news, if your warranty commenced after this date, when your car demands an oil change due to diesel contamination before 21000 miles or 2 years, there will be no offer of financial assistance.

Now I don't know about you guys, but I think it's pretty rich to even consider blaming my driving style for something that they are now candidly admitting internally is a consequence of the architecture of the installation, the larger amount of post-injection required to achieve full regeneration, the increased FIO for each event and the resultant acceleration of the amount of diesel getting into the oil.

So, short answer - no, I think the Ingenium is a fine piece of engineering, it's just not being treated properly as things stand.
Hi VDS, thanks for providing such useful information in this and other posts. If you don't mind me asking, how do you come by this information from JLR sources? I'm obviously not a member of the right club because I just get the usual corporate brush-off from LR CRC :D
 
#297 ·
Mamil said:
Hi VDS, thanks for providing such useful information in this and other posts. If you don't mind me asking, how do you come by this information from JLR sources? I'm obviously not a member of the right club because I just get the usual corporate brush-off from LR CRC :D
Here's some light reading.
 

Attachments

#298 ·
VeryDiscoSport said:
Mamil said:
Hi VDS, thanks for providing such useful information in this and other posts. If you don't mind me asking, how do you come by this information from JLR sources? I'm obviously not a member of the right club because I just get the usual corporate brush-off from LR CRC :D
Here's some light reading.
Thank you - very enlightening! Though I'm somewhat disappointed your source wasn't a mole in the JLR engineering department :lol:
 
#299 ·
VeryDiscoSport said:
Mamil said:
Hi VDS, thanks for providing such useful information in this and other posts. If you don't mind me asking, how do you come by this information from JLR sources? I'm obviously not a member of the right club because I just get the usual corporate brush-off from LR CRC :D
Here's some light reading.
Thanks for your input on this subject.

I fully agree that it's pretty damm shameful for JLR to, and I'll put it bluntly, pass the buck for their mistakes and wonder why they didn't discover this in their "over two-million miles of real world testing and over 72,000 hours of dyno testing" (JLR press release). Perhaps they forgot that the engine was also being fitted to the DS models.

It makes me wonder what other gems they'll come up with to worm their way out of other problems that may arise.
 
#300 ·
Arrrrgh... Yet another design problem. I guess we should all blame this on the EU eco requirements, right? Thanks VDS, now I have something to hold on to, while my dealer is trying to brush me off. I guess they will dismiss this as being an internal document that I shouldn't have obtained, but that's their problem now. I will let them deal wit LR regarding refunds etc.
 
#301 ·
Thanks guys for all the info on here ref: Service Interval. When my oil analysis is complete I suspect it will show around 6% + contamination as it has done 13,500 miles . Having read the excellent pdf file ( thank you for this) https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/download/file.php?id=5997 I wonder how I should proceed if no service required indication pops up anywhere? I had the software update done in April N010 so considering my mileage I would have thought an oil change due dilution would have shown up by now unless the contamination is actually low (2% or 3%) Hopefully if it shows 6% + dilution they will acknowledge this and change the oil to prevent engine damage ?
 
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