Service interval

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VeryDiscoSport
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Re: Service interval

Post by VeryDiscoSport » Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:03 am

simon wrote:
Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:42 pm
Thanks again. Missed that. So this affects 15MY and 16MY only according to the doc. Are you saying 17MY is also affected / potentially affected ?

Sorry if I've missed the answer to this - there's a lot of thread to get through and my memory isn't what it was ;)

No problem at all, Simon. This is important and should be properly promulgated, it's just a pity this isn't coming from JLR. So here's the full list of issues currently drawn together under a service compliance notification (SCN) dealing with oil dilution. The whole thing runs across 15MY to 17MY, the details are:

Failure of vehicles to show Service Indicator Message H007, N010, N020

L405 Range Rover 15-16MY
L494 RR Sport 15-16 MY
L538 Evoque 16MY
L550 Disco Sport 16MY
X152 F-Type 16-17MY
X260 XF 16MY
X760 XE 16MY
X351 XJ 16MY

Oil Dilution and Early Service Requirements N025

L405 Range Rover 16-17MY 3.0L diesel EU6b & NAS markets
L494 Range Rover Sport 16-17MY 3.0L diesel EU6b & NAS markets
L462 All-New Discovery 17MY 3.0L diesel EU6b & NAS markets
L538 Evoque 16-17MY with 2.0L diesel EU6b & NAS markets
L550 Disco Sport 16-17MY with 2.0L diesel EU6b & NAS markets

Hope that clears up any questions about scope.
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Re: Service interval

Post by VeryDiscoSport » Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:07 am

ADI wrote:
Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:23 pm
VeryDiscoSport has posted a lot of informative information on oil dilution.

I had my oil changed "under warranty" at 7000 miles after I got a warning showing on In control App.

Still cannot see any service due info on the car menu - only Adblue range. All Topix updates were done.....

My previous cars had oil changed every year and this will happen again of course when it reaches it's 2 year age.

If I keep the car a yearly change will be factored in but worried reading the new dilution thread is this enough ?

Is there a problem with the the Ingenium engine ?

No, it's not Ingenium, it's how and where it is installed. What a very senior technical source acknowledged recently is that full regeneration takes longer on the affected cars than other Ingenium platforms such as XE and XF, which means there is a higher probability that the regeneration process will get interrupted because the "customer" terminates his journey too soon.

Due to hardware and architectural differences, some cars, such as the Discovery Sport, require a "much higher" amount of post-injection to achieve the necessary particulate burn rate and these factors combine to significantly increase the Fuel In Oil contribution for each regeneration event, in turn leading to a faster accumulation of diesel in the oil. When dilution by volume reaches 6.1% drivers of cars which have a functioning SIM message (but not unmodified ones) will be told to go for the interim oil change. If you carry on driving with high oil dilution this will result in engine failure.

Your eligibility for the free oil changes stems from the fact that a clause in the handbook about the effect of your driving style on the actual service intervals achievable wasn't included in the sales and marketing literature, hard copy or internet, that was being distributed prior to 1st June 2017. That is why, and I am sorry to be the bearer of this news, if your warranty commenced after this date, when your car demands an oil change due to diesel contamination before 21000 miles or 2 years, there will be no offer of financial assistance.

Now I don't know about you guys, but I think it's pretty rich to even consider blaming my driving style for something that they are now candidly admitting internally is a consequence of the architecture of the installation, the larger amount of post-injection required to achieve full regeneration, the increased FIO for each event and the resultant acceleration of the amount of diesel getting into the oil.

So, short answer - no, I think the Ingenium is a fine piece of engineering, it's just not being treated properly as things stand.
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Re: Service interval

Post by VeryDiscoSport » Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:38 am

For those doing oil analysis, there's now a dedicated thread in Technical>Engine and Drivetrain to post the results as they come in:

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=6132

For those considering laboratory analysis, Millers Oils will do a single sample for just under £30 (standard kit) or 2 for £40 (advanced):

http://www.millersoils.co.uk/services/oil-analysis

Back on about page 12 I described how I took my 100 ml sample without having to touch the drain plug.
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Re: Service interval

Post by Zedman » Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:07 am

Just as a matter of interest, Ford are also having diesel regeneration problems on the Transit engine and I think I have also heard that VW have had some issues so the problem is probably wider that we think.
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Re: Service interval

Post by simon » Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:12 am

Once again VDS, many thanks for the information, research and reporting of this.
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Re: Service interval

Post by Mamil » Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:40 am

VeryDiscoSport wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:07 am


No, it's not Ingenium, it's how and where it is installed. What a very senior technical source acknowledged recently is that full regeneration takes longer on the affected cars than other Ingenium platforms such as XE and XF, which means there is a higher probability that the regeneration process will get interrupted because the "customer" terminates his journey too soon.

Due to hardware and architectural differences, some cars, such as the Discovery Sport, require a "much higher" amount of post-injection to achieve the necessary particulate burn rate and these factors combine to significantly increase the Fuel In Oil contribution for each regeneration event, in turn leading to a faster accumulation of diesel in the oil. When dilution by volume reaches 6.1% drivers of cars which have a functioning SIM message (but not unmodified ones) will be told to go for the interim oil change. If you carry on driving with high oil dilution this will result in engine failure.

Your eligibility for the free oil changes stems from the fact that a clause in the handbook about the effect of your driving style on the actual service intervals achievable wasn't included in the sales and marketing literature, hard copy or internet, that was being distributed prior to 1st June 2017. That is why, and I am sorry to be the bearer of this news, if your warranty commenced after this date, when your car demands an oil change due to diesel contamination before 21000 miles or 2 years, there will be no offer of financial assistance.

Now I don't know about you guys, but I think it's pretty rich to even consider blaming my driving style for something that they are now candidly admitting internally is a consequence of the architecture of the installation, the larger amount of post-injection required to achieve full regeneration, the increased FIO for each event and the resultant acceleration of the amount of diesel getting into the oil.

So, short answer - no, I think the Ingenium is a fine piece of engineering, it's just not being treated properly as things stand.

Hi VDS, thanks for providing such useful information in this and other posts. If you don't mind me asking, how do you come by this information from JLR sources? I'm obviously not a member of the right club because I just get the usual corporate brush-off from LR CRC :D
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Re: Service interval

Post by VeryDiscoSport » Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:54 am

Mamil wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:40 am
Hi VDS, thanks for providing such useful information in this and other posts. If you don't mind me asking, how do you come by this information from JLR sources? I'm obviously not a member of the right club because I just get the usual corporate brush-off from LR CRC :D

Here's some light reading.

JLRP00100.pdf
(2.92 MiB) Downloaded 6000 times

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Re: Service interval

Post by Mamil » Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:13 pm

VeryDiscoSport wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:54 am
Mamil wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:40 am
Hi VDS, thanks for providing such useful information in this and other posts. If you don't mind me asking, how do you come by this information from JLR sources? I'm obviously not a member of the right club because I just get the usual corporate brush-off from LR CRC :D

Here's some light reading.

Thank you - very enlightening! Though I'm somewhat disappointed your source wasn't a mole in the JLR engineering department :lol:
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Re: Service interval

Post by Chippy » Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:25 pm

VeryDiscoSport wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:54 am
Mamil wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:40 am
Hi VDS, thanks for providing such useful information in this and other posts. If you don't mind me asking, how do you come by this information from JLR sources? I'm obviously not a member of the right club because I just get the usual corporate brush-off from LR CRC :D

Here's some light reading.
Thanks for your input on this subject.

I fully agree that it's pretty damm shameful for JLR to, and I'll put it bluntly, pass the buck for their mistakes and wonder why they didn't discover this in their "over two-million miles of real world testing and over 72,000 hours of dyno testing" (JLR press release). Perhaps they forgot that the engine was also being fitted to the DS models.

It makes me wonder what other gems they'll come up with to worm their way out of other problems that may arise.
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Re: Service interval

Post by screech » Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:33 pm

Arrrrgh... Yet another design problem. I guess we should all blame this on the EU eco requirements, right? Thanks VDS, now I have something to hold on to, while my dealer is trying to brush me off. I guess they will dismiss this as being an internal document that I shouldn't have obtained, but that's their problem now. I will let them deal wit LR regarding refunds etc.
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