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Service interval

1M views 3K replies 215 participants last post by  Past master 
#1 ·
My DS, first registered in November 2015 has covered 8910 miles.
A few days ago, on the InControl App, a Service Due Alert message appeared advising that my car is due for a service.
This coincided with an occasional message (on first start up of the day) saying that the oil level is low. This message did not stay, but disappeared once the tyre setting message had been displayed. I checked the oil level on the dipstick and it is showing full.
I spoke to my dealer who says that maybe due to the type of driving I have been doing (!!) the car needs an oil and filter change.
Anybody else had a similar experience?
 

Attachments

#2,952 ·
Nearly 3 years after the first DS owners discovered this problem and nothing has changed...

Tracy4567 said:
Hi
Wonder if anyone else has had the scheduled service due reminder on dash and app? So frustrated! Called dealer and told that because I only do short journeys it probably needs oil and filter change. REALLY? Surely it doesnt mean that every 5,ooo miles im going to have to pay out £307. Have booked car in for next week but im not convinced that the explanation i was given was accurate. Don't want to pay out unnecessarily.

Firenze red d180 s.
mrchiggles said:
Others on here have mentioned this as an issue - I for one will be on to Jaguar to complain if this happens to me - the advertised service intervals are what they are and at no point was I advised that shorter journeys would result in additional oil change costs
tecmic said:
No way! Service interval is 2 years or 21k miles for the diesel or 12 months and 16k for the petrol, innit? that's got to be a software bug.... get a different dealer's opinion.

https://www.parkers.co.uk/jaguar/e-pace/running-costs-mpg/
Joweb said:
My service message first came on at 2500 miles, garage turned it off and now it has popped back on at 4700 miles it's booked into the garage next week to investigate
Joweb said:
Back from the garage after an oil and filter change, advised it was because I only do small journeys they have done it free on this occasion but have advised if it keeps happening (which it is expected to) it will be chargeable I've done 5000 miles since March and it's happened twice now! :roll:
 
#2,953 ·
Hi all, newbie here!

Guess what brought me here? Oil dilution of course!

Service due light came on just over a week ago, less than 7k miles. It's a March '18 150ps DS HSE.

Great car but today's shenanigans have rather soured things. As Phil predicts a few posts up, they say it's all down to my driving style so that will be £220 please. Grr!!

I'm collecting it in an hour and will get an indy to do it in the New Year instead. Apparently they've still cleaned it though!
 
#2,954 ·
I purchased my Discovery Sport TD4 180 from new some 12 Months ago. Within 5 Months, the Service Indicator came on. The car at that time had done approximately 3500 miles. An oil change was needed. I subsequently booked my car in and had the oil and filter changed in June of this year, over 8 weeks later at 4500 miles ( This was the earliest date available at my local dealer at the time) they found 10 % oil dilution and performed the required oil change

In November of this year, the service light came on again at 6500 miles indicating I needed another oil change. This oil change was again performed by the local dealer last week at 7300 miles with a 7.5% oil dilution value. Whilst I was told this oil change would be free ( As I have a Service Plan ) The dealer in question informed me that they would only perform another 3 max oil changes, under the plan. So in effect using up my service credits, by all accounts, rather than replacing the oil and filter under warranty?

Understandably I'm not particularly happy. As the dealer has indicated that they will start charging for this in the near future?

Whilst I do mostly suburban driving 90% of the time, my vehicle is used on the motorway around 10% of the time and at least once every 3 weeks I do a 40+ mile motorway journey, travelling on or near the max speed limit. I have also made additional unnecessary motorway journeys when the DPF regeneration warning has come on, which it does periodically.

However, this seems to have made very little difference, given the frequency of my oil changes. I've read a couple of technical articles which make interesting reading, Whilst I can't vouch for there authenticity, they appear to be professional engineering reports about the Landrover Discovery Sport and Evoque Diesel engines and include the specific DPF issue.

My understanding is that there is a serious design fault. The article states that the Diesel particulate filter has been placed a lot lower down the exhaust system in these models and is effectively far too far away from the engine to get hot enough to burn off and vaporise the soot during passive regeneration. Effectively resulting in oil contamination. Active regeneration only occurs when driving the car at high speed and realistically this can only be done whilst driving on a motorway regularly.

My understanding is that there is no actual fix, as far as I'm aware. Perhaps someone can otherwise confirm if this is correct or not?

Had I know about this issue, I would never have purchased the Discovery Sport. I was also given the sale literature, by Land Rover before I purchased, (Now withdrawn) that stated a 21000 mil service interval.

Interesting my local Land Rover dealer tried to get me to sign a disclaimer, when I last went in, to indicate that I'm fully aware of the DPF warning and how best I should drive my Vehicle?

Frankly, I found the whole thing quite bizarre and somewhat insulting, See attached document. Obviously, I declined to sign it and return it. Has anyone else been handed this document? Please see the attached. In all likelihood, I'll be speaking to Land Rover customer service in the very near future.
View attachment 674 View attachment 8719
 

Attachments

#2,955 ·
The dealer can't even get the grammar right in the letter. Not much hope for the service department performing adequately! Maybe the engineers are not able to perform to a satisfactory level till the workshop has reached an acceptable temperature! :D
 
#2,956 ·
clarnick said:
I've read a couple of technical articles which make interesting reading, Whilst I can't vouch for there authenticity, they appear to be professional engineering reports about the Landrover Discovery Sport and Evoque Diesel engines and include the specific DPF issue.
Please do share. There's been a lot of theorising and some excellent amateur sleuthing by members of this forum, but I haven't seen anything of the kind you mentioned, and I'm sure many on here would be interested in it....
 
#2,957 ·
During my Twitter ranting yesterday a chap I know who was contracted up until recently to JLR wondered whether the DPF was placed too far away from the engine to get hot enough. So that's not the first I've heard of it.

I've had an email from Keith Beards this morning, Corporate Executive Support at UK Customer Experience Center (sic) so I am now awaiting a more sensible response from Land Rover about this.

Fingers crossed!
 
#2,958 ·
pistonbroker said:
During my Twitter ranting yesterday a chap I know who was contracted up until recently to JLR wondered whether the DPF was placed too far away from the engine to get hot enough. So that's not the first I've heard of it.
Yes, as I said, lots of theorising, and the DPF being too far from the engine is certainly the favourite so far, but was hoping to see the "professional engineering reports" referred to.
 
#2,959 ·
pistonbroker said:
During my Twitter ranting yesterday a chap I know who was contracted up until recently to JLR wondered whether the DPF was placed too far away from the engine to get hot enough. So that's not the first I've heard of it.

I've had an email from Keith Beards this morning, Corporate Executive Support at UK Customer Experience Center (sic) so I am now awaiting a more sensible response from Land Rover about this.

Fingers crossed!
Yes it's a design flaw and no they won't fix it any time soon , after all they've had 3 years now.

Long thread on DPF discussions here :

https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=7166

https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7558&hilit=Smm

https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=672

But at the end of the day even JLR stayed they are aware of this fault , but choose to blame driving style.

https://www.docdroid.net/KUMbEu2/2017-07-jlrp00100-service-indicator-message-and-oil-dilution.pdf
 
#2,960 ·
It's never going to be fixed. The accepted explanation is more than just a "theory", I might not be a professional automotive engineer but who needs to be? The company that produced it says it has "architecture and hardware" issues that cause it to require "higher than expected" post injection. There is a JLR DPF operation document describing in great detail how it should work (passive regeneration and active regeneration operating in concert), and then a letter from JLR explaining that it doesn't work as it should because, in practical use (normal driving), there's actually no passive regeneration going on due to the exhaust temperature being "too low". This explains the need for more frequent active regenerations. We have Johnson Matthey scientific papers on the temperature profiles required for their coatings to passively and actively regenerate and we have their soot loading and timing experiments in a paper presented to a US government body. Their timings for longer soot burning with SCRF coatings tie in with JLR's admission that active regenerations take longer on the DS and Evoque which is the principal reason for extended regenerations leading to a higher chance of one being interrupted by the driver ending their journey. The forum has recorded scientific oil sample data. There is a convincing record of poor service mileage. All of these information sources tie together into a continuous narrative in which there is absolutely no inconsistency. The exhaust is faulty: it causes premature oil dilution and other damage because it never gets hot enough to deal with the soot properly no matter how hard the car is driven.

JLR have a huge amount at stake in this, now well into the hundreds of millions. It is a major contributory factor to explain the reduced income streams from the diesel versions of the company's two most popular models (sales of which are down by a third). If they could have disproved this explanation, wouldn't they have done so by now? If they could have fixed it, wouldn't they have done so by now? It continues to cost them massively in lost sales and rejections, not to mention all the oil, filters and other parts and labour required to fix cars out in the field. If any organisation had what it took to eliminate these costs and repair the damage to its reputation by providing an alternative explanation, it would have been JLR. Over the past THREE YEARS they've had every opportunity to do something about this appalling mess and yet - nothing. Nothing has been done because, as suggested months ago on here, nothing can be done without a very expensive, complete redesign. Now, with £2.5 billion of cuts coming, the remote prospect of that ever happening has presumably just evaporated.

If you're in the market for a new SUV and like the DS's other great features, I suggest buying a petrol version, just prepare yourself for a return to 1980s fuel economy. Personally I shall be waiting until next year and upgrading the GLC to a diesel with a properly designed exhaust system.
 
#2,962 ·
I think from memory it's a 'free' service if it's before 17K, otherwise it's the full service brought forward (non oil related elements of the service may be held over until 21K) Get it booked in ASAP!
 
#2,963 ·
Hi Folks, I contacted my dealer / supplier of my ds today and said I wish to reject the car due to " not being as described". The dealer has got back to me stating as its more than 30 days since delivery then they are not able to do a rejection. They have offered to buy the car back at current market value. What should my next move be in regards to this. I believe a rejection is still possible ( I took ownership august/Sept 2017 as a replacement for previously rejected ds) as the fault is a known fault by both JLR and the dealer.
Please correct me if I'm wrong
 
#2,964 ·
Wash.FTM said:
Hi Folks, I contacted my dealer / supplier of my ds today and said I wish to reject the car due to " not being as described". The dealer has got back to me stating as its more than 30 days since delivery then they are not able to do a rejection. They have offered to buy the car back at current market value. What should my next move be in regards to this. I believe a rejection is still possible ( I took ownership august/Sept 2017 as a replacement for previously rejected ds) as the fault is a known fault by both JLR and the dealer.
Please correct me if I'm wrong
It' not up to the dealer to "do a rejection" or otherwise and there's a lot of misunderstanding about this process that dealers exploit.

Remember that the owner first rejects the car using the applicable provision of the CRA 2015, after which it becomes the supplier's responsibility to refund what was paid, less (only in the case of a car) the value of any wear and tear. The supplier can't "reject the rejection", as it were, for it is simply an assertion of the customer's rights under the Act. However, the supplier could refuse to acknowledge the rejection, perhaps to test the customer's conviction, but this could be a risky strategy to adopt with a determined and resourceful customer who knew his/her rights, especially if legally represented.

The justification for this particular rejection would be that the DS diesel has a known fault (one that was there when it was manufactured) which means that it is "not of satisfactory quality". Next, they misrepresented the service intervals, because changing the oil and filter (the only practical thing that requires doing at 21K miles) has been required three times already in a car that's only 2/3 of the way to the advertised first service. This will translate into thousands of pounds in future bills which the owner wasn't made aware of when it was sold. Therefore it is "not as described".

Having rejected it, the customer makes the car available for collection, it's then the original owner's responsibility to recover their property and return any money that is still owed. Rejection signals that the customer is demanding rescission of the original contract. If the supplier says that this is impossible due to the time involved, the customer could mention Salt v Stratstone in which the high court ruled that, in relation to the supply of a motor vehicle where misrepresentation had occurred, time elapsed since original contract is not a barrier to rescission. Apart from the onus on the purchaser to show that any defects were present at the time of manufacture, I don't think there is anything to prevent a successful rejection under the CRA 2015 for up to 6 years. I read that on one of the consumer sites but I can't quote the specific source just at the moment.

https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9397&p=97634#p97634
 
#2,965 ·
I think this summarises the timing provisions:

Up to 30 days -
the customer has an automatic right to reject under ss 9, 10 or 11.

> 30 days up to 6 months -
wear and tear can be deducted for the use of a car.

> 6 months up to 6 years -
the customer must be able to show that the fault existed at time of purchase, and
wear and tear can be deducted for the use of any product.

BBC
What if I bought something more than six months ago?

Even after six months, you still have a right to ask for a repair or a replacement. But the retailer now has a right to deduct some money for the use you have had out of the goods. If the product is a car, the retailer can deduct money after just a month.
In the longer term there are still protections, but they depend on the kind of product, and the price paid. These protections extend for up to 6 years in England and Wales, and 5 years in Scotland.
Which
The first six months
If you discover the fault within the first six months of having the product, it is presumed to have been there since the time you took ownership of it - unless the retailer can prove otherwise.
During this time, it's up to the retailer to prove that the fault wasn't there when you bought it - it's not up to you to prove that it was.

Six months or more
If a fault develops after the first six months, the burden is on you to prove that the product was faulty at the time you took ownership of it. In practice, this may require some form of expert report, opinion or evidence of similar problems across the product range.
 
#2,966 ·
PhilMabbots17 said:
I think this summarises the timing provisions:

Up to 30 days -
the customer has an automatic right to reject under ss 9, 10 or 11.

> 30 days up to 6 months -
wear and tear can be deducted for the use of a car.

> 6 months up to 6 years -
the customer must be able to show that the fault existed at time of purchase, and
wear and tear can be deducted for the use of any product.

BBC
What if I bought something more than six months ago?

Even after six months, you still have a right to ask for a repair or a replacement. But the retailer now has a right to deduct some money for the use you have had out of the goods. If the product is a car, the retailer can deduct money after just a month.
In the longer term there are still protections, but they depend on the kind of product, and the price paid. These protections extend for up to 6 years in England and Wales, and 5 years in Scotland.
Which
The first six months
If you discover the fault within the first six months of having the product, it is presumed to have been there since the time you took ownership of it - unless the retailer can prove otherwise.
During this time, it's up to the retailer to prove that the fault wasn't there when you bought it - it's not up to you to prove that it was.

Six months or more
If a fault develops after the first six months, the burden is on you to prove that the product was faulty at the time you took ownership of it. In practice, this may require some form of expert report, opinion or evidence of similar problems across the product range.
Cheers once again. I have told them I will go down the legal route if they so wish and they have responded by saying I will have a definitive answer by the 9th jan.
The car had its 1st oil change about 8 to 10 weeks into my ownership, so I am covered by the 30 day to 6 month scenario.
 
#2,967 ·
I had a very interesting conversation with an engine designer at JLR before Christmas and he told me that the company were in the process of applying for a patent that would 'mitigate' the oil dilution problem. He was obviously cagey and wouldn't elaborate but he seemed very confident that it would stop the Adblue getting into the sump and so stopping the dilution.
 
#2,968 ·
AdBlue doesn't get into the sump; Diesel does. If the JLR Engine Designer think it's AdBlue getting into the sump then that's possibly where they're going wrong. ;)

I suspect the patent application is simply just a modification to the service due algorithm.

Make no mistake, it's highly unlikely that this problem can be resolved without wholesale changes to the exhaust system architecture.
 
#2,969 ·
Woolmeister said:
AdBlue doesn't get into the sump; Diesel does. If the JLR Engine Designer think it's AdBlue getting into the sump then that's possibly where they're going wrong. ;)

I suspect the patent application is simply just a modification to the service due algorithm.

Make no mistake, it's highly unlikely that this problem can be resolved without wholesale changes to the exhaust system architecture.
Sorry that was my typo, of course it is the diesel diluting the oil.
 
#2,970 ·
Well latest update from JLR on my oil dilution. Service light came on after 10,000. Booked in with dealer and £180 later an oil and filter change. Asked about oil dilution issue and if I had to pay for oil change? Dealer not interested but said i should contact JLR.
Phoned JLR customer services and got a call back saying they would talk to the technical department and come back to me. week later they came back and yes, surprise,surprise it was my driving style. Told I was doing to many short trips even though i have done 10,000 miles in 6 months. I explained i do quite a bit of motorway driving so the next explanation was I could be driving too fast for the regeneration to work properly.!!!! I usually set the cruise around 70 so explained this was what a normal car was supposed to do. The next thing was an explanation that I should not interrupt a DPF regen cycle but when asked how i am supposed to know when one is taking place there was no answer.
JLR just seem to have a long list of excuses for every situation. They even told me this was a problem with all cars that had a DPF, and there engines were no different to anyone else's???
 
#2,971 ·
My car is 18 months old. Had from new.

26k on clock and just come up saying it needs another oil change. This will be number 4 !!! :oops:

To be fair my dealer has always followed the JLR100 so apart from 21k service all oil things done via good will.

However, am I in a minority with this amount of oil changes.

I use eco all the time. Long and short distances and about 1k or over a month.
 
#2,972 ·
Wash.FTM said:
Cheers once again. I have told them I will go down the legal route if they so wish and they have responded by saying I will have a definitive answer by the 9th jan.
How have you got on with this? Has the dealer responded definitively within the timescale that they set themselves as they said they would, or not? What solution have they offered you? (Or not as the case may be!)
 
#2,973 ·
Iamthemanny said:
My car is 18 months old. Had from new.

26k on clock and just come up saying it needs another oil change. This will be number 4 !!! :oops:

To be fair my dealer has always followed the JLR100 so apart from 21k service all oil things done via good will.

However, am I in a minority with this amount of oil changes.

I use eco all the time. Long and short distances and about 1k or over a month.
Seems a lot to me. I do about 15000 a year and have only needed two interim changes (car now on 42000 and just had second service). I wonder if using eco, which I don't, causes the car to rev less, so engine running cooler, so more post-injection needed? Just my theory...
 
#2,974 ·
I have recently ordered a DS Landmark for March 2019, I did ask the question should I need an oil change what is the position and the salesmans reply was that as from January 2019 customers will be asked to sign a disclaimer before taking the car off the forecourt. I note the JLR100 amendment and good will gesture and a dealer claims against the warranty, what is the current viewpoint on this topic thanks in anticipation.
 
#2,975 ·
Past master said:
Iamthemanny said:
My car is 18 months old. Had from new.

26k on clock and just come up saying it needs another oil change. This will be number 4 !!! :oops:

To be fair my dealer has always followed the JLR100 so apart from 21k service all oil things done via good will.

However, am I in a minority with this amount of oil changes.

I use eco all the time. Long and short distances and about 1k or over a month.
Seems a lot to me. I do about 15000 a year and have only needed two interim changes (car now on 42000 and just had second service). I wonder if using eco, which I don't, causes the car to rev less, so engine running cooler, so more post-injection needed? Just my theory...
Thanks for rrplying &#x1f44d-1f3fb;

It's more for fuel consumption. I do quite a bit of driving on the flappy paddles to try and over ride the dreadful automatic gearbox and to brake the car with gear box too.

The driving is very mixed, but probably warms more than
People doing all motorway.
 
#2,976 ·
hseblack said:
I have recently ordered a DS Landmark for March 2019, I did ask the question should I need an oil change what is the position and the salesmans reply was that as from January 2019 customers will be asked to sign a disclaimer before taking the car off the forecourt. I note the JLR100 amendment and good will gesture and a dealer claims against the warranty, what is the current viewpoint on this topic thanks in anticipation.
I think the good will oil changes must be costing a fortune. Sadly with JLR financial position from last few months it is another cost cutter.

If I could buy again now, I would go petrol due to all tye time I have wasted getting the car serviced every 6 months.

It is sad that they are now forcing customers, to pay for, what appears to be bad engineering which they cannot fix. If they still exist get the service plan. I did not and that has made it harder.

It will be interesting to see what they do when a new model comes out. I would have thought the Disco dport is a high volume seller. But I have no data to back that up.
 
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