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Don't trust oil service mileage indicator

9K views 15 replies 9 participants last post by  Ian_S 
#1 ·
Checked the oil level and found it 15mm above the maximum. Phoned the dealer for advice (knowing about the diesel in oil dilution problem). They said they would check and get back to me. 20 minutes later Land Rover Assist phone me offering to recover my car to the dealership.
Once there they did a check and confirmed the dilution and did an oil and filter change. Only problem is the service indicator had said I had 5100 miles before I needed an oil service so if I hadn't checked the oil level I could have been driving around for another 5100 miles with a serious problem.
Service indicator now says I have 13,800 until the next oil service but I now have no confidence that it won't let me drive round with a serious oil dilution problem.
 
#2 ·
Wouldn't it be lovely if Land Rover could be honest and add the estimated oil dilution % to the Vehicle Info section on the instrument cluster? :)

I'm sure they would also say that we should check oil levels regularly, but that alone isn't really enough.

Did the garage tell you what the car had estimated the dilution level to be?

EDIT: And at least you have an oil/service indicator, on MY16 we live life on the edge and don't even have that!
 
#3 ·
Which begs the question.
For us MY16 owners, when should we change the oil?
Every x miles regardless or wait for the next service indicator and if it's after a known service perform an oil change?
Welcome thoughts.

BB
 
#4 ·
If your on the motorway most days 8000 else probably 5-6 if it's a short trip machine.

"Depends on your driving style sir"😱
 
#5 ·
I got to 13,500-ish miles on my MY16 without breaching the magic dilution % marker... Had it changed as a precaution and also because I was starting to doubt that the dilution counter was working, given that common wisdom has an expectation of 7000 miles on average. SDD apparently showing 6%.

If 13,500 miles is below the car calling for a service (and oil level didn't seem high when checked either) then I can live with that and an oil change once a year.
 
#6 ·
Ian_S said:
I got to 13,500-ish miles on my MY16 without breaching the magic dilution % marker... Had it changed as a precaution and also because I was starting to doubt that the dilution counter was working, given that common wisdom has an expectation of 7000 miles on average. SDD apparently showing 6%.

If 13,500 miles is below the car calling for a service (and oil level didn't seem high when checked either) then I can live with that and an oil change once a year.
That's what I was thinking

We do 18k miles a year on a variety of journeys.
We do get the burning smell at least once a month but not had amber or red DPF warnings to date.
I guess get into the habit of checking the oil level regularly and change the oil if level looks high or max 13k miles after last service.

BB
 
#7 ·
OK, this is a serious question... however first, I agree that there is a flaw in the exhaust architecture, 21,000 miles would seem to be a veritable unicorn distance, and that journey type and driving style are two different things.

Most of my journeys are only 25 miles, a few longer, many more shorter, so I do not spend my time cruising motorways. Yet I'm almost double the forum average for service intervals at 7000 miles. I don't drive for economy, I've never used the Eco button, and get around mid to high 30's on mpg.

So, can driving style adversely impact miles between services? Is it 80% journey type and 20% driving style or some other mix?
 
#9 ·
My MY16 has asked for one interim oil change between services, that's around 10000 miles. I'm happy with that and both oil changes so far (I'm on 43000 miles) have been done FoC. I'm anticipating trading in at around 50000 miles, so may or may not need another before she goes!
 
#10 ·
Ian_S said:
OK, this is a serious question... however first, I agree that there is a flaw in the exhaust architecture, 21,000 miles would seem to be a veritable unicorn distance, and that journey type and driving style are two different things.

Most of my journeys are only 25 miles, a few longer, many more shorter, so I do not spend my time cruising motorways. Yet I'm almost double the forum average for service intervals at 7000 miles. I don't drive for economy, I've never used the Eco button, and get around mid to high 30's on mpg.

So, can driving style adversely impact miles between services? Is it 80% journey type and 20% driving style or some other mix?
Based on personal experience I believe that ECO-style driving on trunk roads/motorways actually creates the worst of all conditions because it produces a lot of soot and HC/PM - but NONE of it is oxidized at the time of production. This is because such driving counts as "normal driving" which, according to JLR themselves, means that no passive regeneration occurs and soot must be stored until an active regeneration is called for by the control software. :lol: So when they say it's due to "driving style", tell them they mean "normal driving". Certified copies of the letter are available on request. D5 drivers are now being told by dealers to change their journeys so as to AVOID motorways, remember.
View attachment 7162

On the question of averages, our oil poll shows that at least 71% of cars need an oil service before 12,599 miles. I don't trust the other 29% entirely, there are bound to be some in there that had a working acoustic device or, more likely, a non-functioning IC Service Required message, as described by N118, N025 etc, etc.

Of the 71% that we can be SURE didn't get to 12,600 miles, the average is 7,500 miles.
 

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#11 ·
VeryDiscoSport said:
Based on personal experience I believe that ECO-style driving on trunk roads/motorways actually creates the worst of all conditions because it produces a lot of soot and HC/PM - but NONE of it is oxidized at the time of production. This is because such driving counts as "normal driving" which, according to JLR themselves, means that no passive regeneration occurs and soot must be stored until an active regeneration is called for by the control software. :lol:
I've always maintained that driving with the ECO programme running is compromising other things related to the engine and emissions system, as well as overall performance. Some people love their little ECO button though....I guess that they think that they can save the polar bears having it on all the time....
 
#13 ·
Ian_S said:
Maybe it stood for Engine Contamination On all the time...
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yep. Buy a dirty great 4x4, then "virtue signal" your *greeeeen* credentials by pressing the ECO button.......oooooooh look at mee....look at meeeeeee! I'm saving the planet!!
 
#14 ·
I had the first oil service at about 8500 miles. The car had done 16000 and the oil service indicator stated I had 5100 miles to go before it needed the oil service. My "driving style" hasn't changed and I do do a lot of short journeys so I was surprised that there was going to be such a difference in the mileage between oil services.
The concern came with checking the dipstick and finding the oil level so high. The fact that on checking with the dealer Landrover Assistance insisted on recovering the vehicle shows how serious the potential problem was.

If I hadn't checked the dipstick and relied on the service indicator, I would have driven for the additional 5100 miles and potentially caused serious damage to the engine.
 
#15 ·
Andrewilk said:
I had the first oil service at about 8500 miles. The car had done 16000 and the oil service indicator stated I had 5100 miles to go before it needed the oil service. My "driving style" hasn't changed and I do do a lot of short journeys so I was surprised that there was going to be such a difference in the mileage between oil services.
The concern came with checking the dipstick and finding the oil level so high. The fact that on checking with the dealer Landrover Assistance insisted on recovering the vehicle shows how serious the potential problem was.

If I hadn't checked the dipstick and relied on the service indicator, I would have driven for the additional 5100 miles and potentially caused serious damage to the engine.
Absolutely correct - high diesel dilution has already caused, and still has the potential to cause, catastrophic engine failures with potentially life-threatening consequences. Until the Service Required warning system works correctly on all cars, Ingenium diesel engines can continue to fail in dangerous circumstances due to unchecked oil dilution. Just as JLR said they would in JLRP00100. See Catastrophic failure.

It has been alleged that JLR took deliberate steps in an attempt to hide major design/engineering faults in the 2.0L Ingenium Evoque and Discovery Sport diesels that it manufactured and sold for two and a half years between September 2015 and the early part of 2018. After being exposed on this forum and elsewhere, they've finally stopped trying to hide the problem - but without changing the architecture and hardware of the exhaust system - and now say that "higher than expected" diesel dilution is caused by the drivers themselves and is a matter of "design intent". I suppose it's a case of picking the lie that you dislike least, because to my way of thinking it can't be BOTH "higher than expected" AND "design intent" at the same time. They have been asked about this in the CRC relations area, it will be interesting to see how they square the circle.

Like other manufacturers, JLR deployed software routines available on the Bosch EDC17 ECU. Some of the available software routines keep AdBlue dosing low in real world driving, thus enabling diesel engines to operate at the higher temperatures which are needed to deal effectively with hydro-carbon and particulate matter production. But on 18th September 2015 the world received unambiguous notice from the United States' EPA that such software devices could no longer be used if car executives also wanted to avoid the prospect of jail time. These software routines are better known as diesel cheat devices. Removing them without changing the exhaust design is known to cause higher oil dilution, intermittent hesitation in throttle response, high AdBlue usage, reduced fuel economy and, in the worst cases, sudden DPF clogging leading to ultimate failure. See the Guardian, Emissions fix left car undriveable.

Hiding the service interval problem was a necessary deception because the company executives knew that it could have been in financial difficulty without the large income streams coming from these two mass market models. In fact, we now know that JLR was barely breaking even during this period and has only managed to look profitable for the last three years (FY2016 to FY2018) because it had put at least £3.1 billion of borrowed cash, money that had already been spent, into the assets column of its balance sheet. This is called "capitalised R&D" spending and Tata investors had noticed well before the recent £3.4 billion profit crash that JLR was capitalising an inordinate proportion (80%) of its research and development spend, way higher than the industry average. See my posts in various threads in the Off Topic section for documented history of the financial crisis that was developing in parallel with the deliberate diesel dilution deception campaign.
JLR posts huge financial loss
Good year for Jaguar
Death of Diesel?

For a concise list of the steps taken to hide this problem visit Newbies Should Read This. All the evidence is in the public domain and a comprehensive and convincing narrative of events can be constructed simply by collating three years worth of owner accounts on this forum. Naturally, if everybody has been lying since 2015, then JLR has nothing to worry about.
 
#16 ·
Just to temper that slightly, there are things you can do:

Check oil levels regularly as the thing that will lead to severe engine issues is high levels. This indicates high dilution. If you are under warranty and discover you have very high levels, then call LR Assist. Otherwise if you have a pump, remove oil until the dipstick level is between the normal marks. You then have a choice of going to a garage for a full change, or doing one yourself, but do this ASAP.

Plan on yearly oil changes. 21,000 miles was always too optimistic and an attempt to get a low TCO for fleet and PCP customers who with service plans did not want any additional unexpected servicing costs.

Make sure you have the InControl App configured and working as if your car is not on the correct software (and it's still not clear what that is for all reporting to work) the app appears to correctly indicate early services and should not be ignored.

If you do low mileage, short journeys and have had the odd DPF needs cleaning message, then you are most at risk of high dilution, and you should check your oil level ASAP, as well as get your InControl app working. If that indicates a service is required, I would be tempted to call LR Assist to get them to check out the engine and what it says for oil dilution. If it looks bad, they will get the car recovered to a dealer.
 
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