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Bizarre catastrophic failure of car!

69K views 99 replies 21 participants last post by  bxzx16v 
#1 ·
Dear All,

I'd be grateful to get any advice about something that has happened that seems to have practically killed my wife's car!
She has a 2016 Discovery Sport diesel, with the ingenium engine, and it has only done about 9000 miles or so.
The other day, when I was driving it, it seemed to suffer a catastrophic engine failure: was doing about 60mph or so, when suddenly there was a white puff of smoke from behind me and the rev counter instantly dropped to zero, and the car lost all power and came to a halt. Had to be recovered as couldn't be started. The view of the LR assist technician was that the engine seems to have seized.

We've had the car since new, and it has a Land Rover service plan, where the first scheduled service is at 21,000 miles or 24 months (we have not reached the 24 months yet in our case).
The only maintenance it's needed from us has been, on perhaps one occasion, a slight top up of coolant, on several occasions the screen wash fluid, and on I think 3 occasions, adding more AdBlue. All of which I've done myself and which I consider well within my own competencies, as I've had and self-maintained many cars in the past (This might seem excessive detail to be giving, but you'll see why I'm mentioning it in a minute).

Also, there were no warning lights on or any sign of the impending failure that day. The only thing of note was that, at the start of the journey (about 1 hr each way), the amber light for the DPF regeneration was on, and about 5 min or so into the outbound journey, the green message appeared saying that the DFR regeneration was now complete. Then I carried on the rest of the way of the 1hr journey. And it was about 15-20 min or so into the return leg of the 1hr journey when the car failed.

So back to the story. The car was recovered to an LR dealership. A few days later, I got a call from the service centre saying that their initial tests had revealed the engine was massively over-full with oil. (several litres extra, apparently!) They asked if it had been brought anywhere for servicing, and that maybe that garage might have over-filled the oil, and I said that it has never gone in anywhere for servicing, because the first service interval on our service schedule is 21,000 miles or 24 months. And also I said that I've never had to top up the oil myself. I said to them that if it was overfilled, it can only have been from when we first got it.

Then a few days later they called back and said that their initial in-house tests were showing the engine oil was very over-diluted, and also that it contained AdBlue (and they kind of implied that we had mistakenly filled the AdBlue into the engine!!) I said this definitely wasn't the case, as it has only been me, on about 2 or 3 occasions, who has filled the AdBlue, and I know exactly where I am meant to put it, and I most certainly did not put it into the engine!!!!

That brings the story up to date. I don't know what is going to happen next. And the car is only 9000 or so miles old. My impression so far is that they seem quite keen to be identifying ways to suggest the customer has done something wrong (but maybe I'm being too skeptical? I don't know.)
I'd be grateful if anyone had any ideas or suggestions about what might have happened.

Many thanks
Mike
 
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#2 ·
Surely the ADblue thing is a red herring? The main constituent of adblue by volume is water so any significant amount would show up in the oil in an obvious way. As this occurred during your journey and there was no prior warning ( such as plumes of smoke pouring out of the exhaust) the most obvious explanation would be one or more injectors constantly pumping fuel in like an open tap. The alternative would be a catastrophic mechanical failure only indirectly related to the oil dilution. It might be wise to ask for a sample of the sump contents in case you need an independent analysis.
 
#3 ·
The first thing that I would be doing is getting an independent inspection of the block toot-sweet, before JLR and their colluding representatives tamper with the remaining evidence to point the finger back at you.

The dealer technicians will do and say exactly as instructed by the manufacturer, in order to negate their liability.

To anyone who thinks that I am being paranoid, this comes from a bitter experience over 25 years ago, when I had a helicoil collapse into an engine at motorway speed on a Vauxhall Cavalier SRi, causing catastrophic failure and resulting in con-rods pushing out through the block. Vauxhall sent engineers, who deemed that it had been a botched previous repair, and it was my fault so tough shit. The fact that the car had only done 4000 miles from new and never needed any repairs up until that point was irrelevant - they deemed it as "owner error", and I had absolutely zero recourse. A costly experience, and a lesson learnt - never trust a dealer, it's not in their interest to represent the customer, as we have seen on numerous occasions on this forum!
 
#4 ·
Thank you both.
I have no idea how I would instruct either of these independent analyses to be done! I've never had to do that before. Who should i contact?
If it makes any difference, the car is on a contract hire agreement from Land Rover Contract Hire. Does that give me any additional rights or remedies?
Many thanks.
 
#5 ·
long time ago, so will be brief, Austin Maxi, Engine main and big end bearings failed, replaced by regrinding crankshaft / new bearings, bearings failed again twice subsequently after just 5 miles each time.. eventually found very small crack internal to engine block which under pressure allowed water into the oil and so bearings failed due to inadequete lubrication.
Note that you had to top up the water once, ( never needed on my car , 3 yrs and 21000 miles.)
Water in the oil might be considered as d.e.f. which basically it is. Good Luck
 
#6 ·
For what it's worth, and to give credit where credit is due, I would add that I couldn't have been more happy with the "LR Assist" aspect of my experience so far - eg the onward mobility and replacement car side of things. These have actually exceeded expectations!
My anxiety really is what lies ahead in terms of the car itself.
As I mentioned, does being a contract hire change things for us?
Thanks
Mike
 
#7 ·
Contact these guys ASAP , they do the best inspections and will write you a report with legal standing, even JLR won't fight their results.
https://www.dekra-expert.co.uk/vehicle.inspections

If successful with rejection you can claim back the cost of the inspection.
Tell JLR NOT to touch the Car until it is inspected !
 
#8 ·
👍 to that.

What does it say in JLRP00100?

"Continued vehicle use with high oil dilution WILL result in engine failue."

If it was mine, I would definitely NOT let JLR anywhere near this engine until it had been inspected by an impartial, independent expert.
 
#10 ·
Mike, if you can hold a bible and swear on your life that you didn't put Ad-Blue into the oil filler and you can explain convincingly to a jury why such a suggestion would be ridiculous, then.... following the route that Holmes and Dr. Watson would take...... what's left is the awful fact that they are lying and engaging in fraudulent activity in an attempt to frame you for the failure. Ad-Blue can't get in the engine other than by mis-application. Similarly, diesel dilution in large amounts can't get into the oil except by prolonged post injection, or direct application through the oil filler. You have only done 9,000 miles in 2 years and your car almost certainly doesn't have a functioning SIM. Top candidate imho is therefore engine failure due to continued vehicle use with high diesel dilution, precisely what JLR told us would occur in JLRP00100.

https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5379&start=215

I wish you the very best of luck with this. Please use the forum as a sounding board as and when you have further questions.
 
#15 ·
mike2019 said:
Latest update is that today the service centre have said the warranty won't cover it "because there is too much fluid in the engine and it is too dilute".
As I've said before if you are sure you didn't cause it get an indipendant inspection.
 
#17 ·
Even if you cannot get the vehicle inspected independently, you should at least try and get a sample of the oil and send it off to Millers. They will analyse the oil and be able to provide an indication as to what might be up with it, and what is in it.

If your car has not been to a dealer for a service, then it's entirely possible that the oil is excessively diluted with diesel fuel which has caused engine failure (as specified in JLRP00100).

Yours could be one of the first of many vehicles that has failed as a direct consequence of critically high oil dilution.

Good luck.

Steve
 
#19 ·
Amazing that our resident Bot from CRC, who nobody has heard from THIS YEAR to date can suddenly drop in on another thread on the forum unannounced in the last hour, trotting out the usual rhetoric, yet is conveniently side-stepping this particular thread?

I wonder what keywords aforementioned Bot is looking for......
 
#20 ·
Wow... :eek:

Firstly I think I'd be naming and shaming the dealership for having the sheer audacity to attempt to blame someone for putting adblue into the engine via presumably the oil filler cap...

Then as others have said get an independent inspection and if possible a sample of the engine oil.

For over two years use and only 9000 miles I'm guessing the car does mainly short trips? Also how often have you had the DPF amber warning light appear? The ECU will possibly have been cleared by the garage... if not it may hold evidence of lots of failed regens vs, presumably not many successful ones.

You need to start with a coffee and read the thread PhilM pointed you too, and move on to something stronger as you read it.

If your engine has gone properly bang, then you may well have water in the engine, but not from adblue but from internal catastrophe which is more than likely down to oil dilution.

Do you use the InControl app? On a MY16, even if the car doesn't tell you it needs an oil service because of dilution the app may, another software fault on the car for MY16. IF you don't use the app, the car has no polite way of informing you it needs an oil service, which surely is not your fault....

Edit: And I'd be lying if I said I didn't go outside and double check my oil levels! ;)
 
#21 ·
Thanks Ian,

Yes, it has been mainly short trips (It's my wife's car, so has only really been used for the school run for the past 22-23 months, since we got it from new).

As for the number of regens, it's hard to remember. I guess it's happened every once in a while, and I've had to take it on the motorway for that pointless trip to clear it. Maybe it's been around 6-12 times in total? As I mentioned in my post, the most recent time was on the day itself when the engine seized. I would add, it did audibly seize, and with a real cloud of white smoke behind us!

Thanks for your advice and support,
Mike
 
#22 ·
Mike, whilst not casting aspersions, has your wife or any of her friends been under the bonnet to top ANY fluids up at all? If no, thus negating any possibility that she/they have inadvertently added the wrong fluid to the wrong reservoir, then you need a sample of oil from the old block ASAP and get it tested independently.
 
#24 ·
mike2019 said:
Thanks Ian,

Yes, it has been mainly short trips (It's my wife's car, so has only really been used for the school run for the past 22-23 months, since we got it from new).

As for the number of regens, it's hard to remember. I guess it's happened every once in a while, and I've had to take it on the motorway for that pointless trip to clear it. Maybe it's been around 6-12 times in total? As I mentioned in my post, the most recent time was on the day itself when the engine seized. I would add, it did audibly seize, and with a real cloud of white smoke behind us!

Thanks for your advice and support,
Mike
Have you used the InControl app at all that gives you basic info about the car?
 
#26 ·
mike2019 said:
No, I've never tried to use that. (and the car is currently out of my hands, so I doubt I'd be able to get it set up at this stage).
Thanks
mike
There is your initial line of defence then.

The JLR documents (JLRP00100 amongst others) make it quite clear that MY2016 cars do *NOT* warn the owner that an oil change is required because the oil has become too diluted. Given your journey pattern, you will almost certainly be one of the people who will require oil changes quite frequently because the car cannot complete DPF regens very often, and will have plenty of failed regen attempts that will increase the oil diluition very rapidly.

As your car has never been to a dealer because you did the adblue top-ups yourself, the software will never have been updated, and the dealers would not have noticed through their diagnostics that dilution was high.
 
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