[Mamil]

Great to hear a good experience for once! Remember it's always in the dealer's interests to do warranty/goodwill work if it's covered by JLR (or the insurance company if it's an extended warranty) as they are paid for it! In fact it can be quite a nice little earner for a dealer, which is why the manufacturers now are much stricter on checking if it really needs doing, as a few dealers have worked the system in the past! The labour rate they get paid is a bit less than they charge retail, but still profitable.

 

[Mamil]

If JLR really didn't know then you would expect the DS and XE to match in parameter configuration. IF they don't, JLR definitely knew what was coming...

Here's an interesting little nugget from the dealer technical training manual for the Freelander 2, which pre-dates the launch of the DS...

NOTE: Post-injections result in high oil dilution and
must therefore be kept within limits.
To avoid excessively high oil dilution, a minimum
driving distance has to be maintained between two
regeneration cycles approx. 528 miles (850 km).

By choosing to set the driving distance between regenerations on the DS to half that - 250 miles, the above would suggest that they definitely knew what was coming...

 

[Mamil]

It's both
It regenerates on % full, then if not regenerated in so many miles ( 250 I think) it does one anyway .

Yes, it's been posted a couple of times before, but seems worthwhile repeating here, so this is what the workshop manual says about it all...

DIESEL PARTICULATE FILTER (DPF)
Two processes are used to regenerate the DPF; passive and active.
Passive Regeneration
Passive regeneration requires no special engine management intervention and occurs during normal engine operation. The
passive regeneration involves a slow conversion of the particulate matter deposited in the DPF into carbon dioxide. This
process occurs when the DPF temperature exceeds 250°C (482°F) and is a continuous process when the vehicle is being
driven at higher engine loads and speeds.
During passive regeneration, only a portion of the particulate matter is converted into carbon dioxide. This is because the
chemical reaction, which utilises nitrogen dioxide, is slower than the rate of engine production of particulate matter and is
effective from 250°C (482°F).
Above 580°C the conversion efficiency of the particulates into carbon dioxide rapidly increases. These temperatures are
generally only be achieved using the active regeneration process.
Active Regeneration
Active regeneration starts when the particulate loading of the DPF reaches a threshold as monitored or determined by the DPF
control software. The threshold calculation is based on driving style, distance travelled and back pressure signals from the
differential pressure sensor.
Active regeneration generally occurs every 250 miles (400 km) although this is dependant on how the vehicle is driven. For
example, if the vehicle is driven at low loads in urban traffic regularly, active regeneration will occur more often. This is due to
the rapid build-up of particulates in the DPF than if the vehicle is driven at high speeds when passive regeneration will have
occurred.
The DPF software incorporates a mileage trigger which is used as back-up for active regeneration. If active regeneration has
not been initiated by a back pressure signal from the differential pressure sensor, regeneration is requested based on distance
travelled.
Active regeneration of the DPF is commenced when the temperature of the DPF is increased to the combustion temperature of
the particles. The DPF temperature is raised by increasing the exhaust gas temperature. This is achieved by introducing
post-injection of fuel after the pilot and main fuel injections have occurred.
It is determined by the DPF software monitoring the signals from the two DPF temperature sensors to establish the
temperature of the DPF. Depending on the DPF temperature, the DPF software requests the Engine Control Module (ECM) to
perform either one or two post-injections of fuel:
The first post-injection of fuel is associated with retarded combustion to increase the temperature of the exhaust gas
and therefore allow the oxidation catalyst to reach it's operational temperature.
The second post-injection of fuel is injected late in the power stroke cycle. The fuel is not intended to combust in the
cylinder, and hence unburnt fuel passes into the exhaust where it creates an exothermic event within the catalytic
converter, further increasing the temperature of the DPF.
The active regeneration process takes up to 20 minutes to complete. The first phase increases the exhaust gas temperature to
ensure the catalytic converter is active. The second phase further increases the DPF temperature to the optimum temperature
for particle combustion. This temperature is then controlled for 15-20 minutes to ensure complete oxidation of the particles
within the DPF. The oxidation process converts the carbon particles to carbon dioxide.
The active regeneration temperature of the DPF is closely monitored by the DPF software to maintain a target temperature at
the DPF inlet. The temperature control ensures that the temperatures do not exceed the operational limits of the turbocharger
and the catalytic converter. The turbocharger inlet temperature must not exceed 830°C (1526°F), the catalytic converter brick
temperature must not exceed 800°C (1472°F) and the exit temperature must remain below 875°C (1382°F).
Diesel Particulate Filter Side Effects
The following section details some side effects caused by the active regeneration process.
Engine Oil Dilution
Engine oil dilution can occur due to small amounts of fuel entering the engine crankcase during the post-injection phases. This
has made it necessary to introduce a calculation based on driving style to reduce oil service intervals if necessary. The driver
is alerted to the oil service by a message in the instrument cluster.
The DPF software monitors the driving style and the frequency of the active regeneration and duration. Using this information
a calculation can be made on the engine oil dilution. When the DPF software calculates the engine oil dilution has reached a
predetermined threshold (fuel being 7% of engine oil volume) a service message is displayed in the IC.
Depending on driving style, some vehicles may require an oil service before the designated interval. If a service message is
displayed, the vehicle will be required have a full service and the service interval counter will be reset.
Fuel consumption
During the active regeneration process of the DPF, there will be an increase in fuel consumption.
However, because active regeneration occurs infrequently, the overall effect on fuel consumption is approximately 2%. The
additional fuel used during the active regeneration process is accounted for in the instantaneous and average fuel
consumption displays in the instrument cluster.

It's interesting to note that the previous DS engine, the 2.2L PSE/Ford which was Euro 5, also had a mileage backstop of 250 miles according to the workshop manual. So it seems like it is something else that is causing the more frequent regenerations in the Ingenium equipped models than the backstop setting. By the way, the Freelander 2, also Euro 5 and with the PSE/Ford 2.2 had a backstop setting of 528 miles.

 

[Mamil]

During my Twitter ranting yesterday a chap I know who was contracted up until recently to JLR wondered whether the DPF was placed too far away from the engine to get hot enough. So that's not the first I've heard of it.

Yes, as I said, lots of theorising, and the DPF being too far from the engine is certainly the favourite so far, but was hoping to see the "professional engineering reports" referred to.

 

[Mamil]

I've read a couple of technical articles which make interesting reading, Whilst I can't vouch for there authenticity, they appear to be professional engineering reports about the Landrover Discovery Sport and Evoque Diesel engines and include the specific DPF issue.

Please do share. There's been a lot of theorising and some excellent amateur sleuthing by members of this forum, but I haven't seen anything of the kind you mentioned, and I'm sure many on here would be interested in it....

 

[Mamil]

But agree oil tests on those with the same engine that are not suffering the above oil dilution and increased active regenerations issues would be a good comparison for Iron content in oil.

Not the same engine as I have the old 2.2 but nevertheless it may give you a useful comparison. My iron peaked at 91ppm in the first year, and has since dropped and levelled off at between 60-70ppm for the last three results ( I sample every six months). The analysis lab says these results are normal, and what they call the "bathtub shaped wear curve" - starts high as the engine runs in during the first year then falls to a constant wear rate for most of it's life, but then will start to rise again as components break down as it approaches end of life.

 

[Mamil]

AU$550 is about right for a full service, but just an oil & filter change should cost less. I pay AU$295 at my dealer. Moot point as you got it free this time, but if you keep the car sooner or later you'll be paying for it out of your own pocket. As I said on another thread I usually keep my cars for ten years, and was planning the same with the DS, but now will probably get rid of after the extended warranty runs out at five years. They are just so complex, have too many issues, and are expensive to fix. And it doesn't help that the dealers just don't have a clue, and LR CRC are useless.

As others have said, this is not a car to keep out of warranty!

 

[Mamil]

It's not common for private owners of small vehicles to test their oil, but large fleets of lorries, trains, mining vehicles, agricultural vehicles, and marine engines in ferries/trawlers etc. are often tested as part of their regular maintenance schedules. It's cheaper for them to test the oil and see if and when an oil & filter change is necessary than just routinely change them. It also provides a long term record of the health of a particular engine so that downtime for engine refurbishment or replacement can be scheduled. I first started testing oil when I was in the marine business and now do it before each oil change on my cars, even before the problems with oil dilution arose. So, you'd need to look for oil analysis companies that service local industries such as logistics, mining or marine.

Also, I don't know what the rules are in Europe, but here in Oz used engine oil is not considered a 'dangerous good' so can freely be transported through the postal system and by air, so you could probably use a laboratory service that is in another country. The labs usually provide a kit with a bottle, syringe, tubing, and return envelope, and the test results are returned by email.

 

[Mamil]

Had that happen to me on a boat engine once - not pretty!

Only thing you can do is stuff a rag in the air intake to starve the engine of air.

 

[Mamil]

First of all they missed the DS launch window with Ingenium and had to stick with Duratorq. The guy at the top was p!ssed about this and I gather that powertrain was told to pull their finger out and get the Ingenium into the DS whatever it took. They said, "Look boss, it's too long for the engine compartment to fit it in-line. It goes in transversely but the turbo outlet is too near the bulkhead to bolt on the DPF. There's also a wiring issue to resolve. You need to get bodywork to give us more room". The answer was, "It's going in for 16MY and the shell isn't being changed. Get on with it." Then they pleaded again, "We can do it by moving stuff around, but you need to get servicing to rein back to 16K intervals, or better still 12K". Final word from the top, "They're staying at 21K. Why are you still here?"

The rest, as they say, is history. Architecturally, I think it's set in stone until 19MY or probably later. The AJ20D oil burner in the L550 will presumably die the death now petrol is here. But who wants to drop 20 mpg?

Hi VDS, is this just speculation on your part, or is it the way things actually went, from a 'reliable' source? Thanks.

 

[Mamil]

The AU website seems next to useless. Seems only about 10 people post stuff. Only 1 I recognise from these UK forums. 1st page of posts goes back to 4th June - not much point of a forum with so little interested parties.

Yep, I'm the one who is on both, and I did warn you that it's not very active! But.... if you want JLR Australia to take notice you'll need to stir up a reaction on Australian social media - ie. Forums and Facebook, because as you've seen yourself they are in a different world and don't just follow what the UK does.

 

[Mamil]

I know there are two other Australian owners in this thread, but as this is the highest selling vehicle in its class in Australia, I would expect there should be many more - unless they just don't follow forums, and in which case are ticking time bombs.

You have to remember this is a UK based forum. If you wanted to reach out to more Australian DS owners you could try https://www.aulro.com/afvb/l550-discovery-sport/ but it isn't anything like as busy or helpful, which is why I lurk here most of the time

 

[Mamil]

I had the instant L/100Klm on the screen and was glancing at it periodically - I can say it never went over 9 on that highway drive, sat around 4-6 as it normally does when cruising along. I was expecting something but very uneventful - got quite excited for a while - then such an anticlimax!

Don't expect it to go above 9. My normal fuel consumption cruising on the freeway is 5.3L/100km and it increases to 7.5 during a regen. You have to be on a flat bit of road and on cruise control to notice it over the normal fluctuations.

 

[Mamil]

I don't understand why it isn't explicit on the screen when a regen is going on, specially since it's presumably better not to interrupt the process before it finishes.

Yes, stupid isn't it. A number of us have already raised this with JLR via the customer service section of this forum, and got the usual "we'll feed it back to the development team" brush-off. Maybe if more people add their voices to that thread it'll get more traction...

 

[Mamil]

The general idea is that the process is "seamless" so far as the driving experience is concerned and you've got to admit that for the most part it is. The big differences are 2% fuel penalty, EGR valve closed throughout, turbo-charger operates in closed loop configuration, power output mimics normal engine response by managing the mass flow of fresh air in response to throttle movement.

The detail is in here.
Exhaust System DPF Operation.pdf

To clarify, the 2% fuel penalty is across your whole driving average. When doing a regen the increase in fuel consumption is about 30%.

 

[Mamil]

Edit to add. And how does it calculate the % fullness anyway?

Pressure sensor in the exhaust system measures backpressure and from this calculates % full - yes another estimate based on an algorithm

Isn't there a red flag in these numbers in that the Active Regen was completed only 30 miles previously and yet the soot is 20%. Should it not be nearer to 30 / 203 * 36 if it burns it off to zero (203 miles between regens, 36 % trigger)? That would make it about 5.3% if my maths is still working at this unseemly hour...

It won't go all the way down to zero each time, just like it doesn't go all the way up to full before it calls a regen. There will be a band of acceptable values it tries to keep within, balancing the need to keep the DPF from clogging up with the length of regens.

 

[Mamil]

Mamil - as you are also in Australia, just copying this post from the Uk CRC question I raised re Australian vehicles - needless to say as we have the same design/engine why are we being left out in the cold ? - my dealer just rest the service due without checking the dilution - hence the need for an oil analysis :

Thank you for your post.

I can confirm that unfortunately, the information provided by myself previously relates to UK specification vehicles and campaign. Alternatively, the oil may not require a change should it not have diluted enough to require a full oil change in which case the indicator would be reset. Unfortunately I would be unable to request that the retailer must change the oil for your vehicle.

Thanks,
Amellia

Yes, saw that on the other thread. Similar response to when I pushed UK CRC on the gearbox issues - as soon as they realised I was in Oz they just weren't interested. They claimed to have forwarded my case to Oz CRC but I never heard anything. Hence my comment about the most important thing being your relationship with the dealer. That's the way I got my issues resolved, CRC in UK and Oz were of no help.

 

[Mamil]

I just checked with another, not so local dealer to me in Australia, they say they have no knowledge of this, and they also would not give a free oil service - they would also just reset the service due. It seems in Australia we dont have the same cover as you guys in the UK. I opened a case with CRC Aus on the weekend, nothing back to me as yet.

That's very disturbing, though not entirely surprising, as our consumer laws are much weaker than the UK. For example try rejecting a car for B pillar rattle in Oz!

Let me know how you get on with CRC.

 

[Mamil]

My experience is that during a DPF regen stop/start doesn't work (ie. the engine stays running), and in fact that's one of the ways I know a regen is happening. So, no need to turn it off.

I believe there is one exception to this, and it's only a theory based on my observations as there's nothing official about it. The workshop manual talks about there being two phases of a regen. The first stage lasts about 15 mins to return the DPF filter to a useable state, but if driving conditions stay suitable it may carry on for another 10 mins or so after this to burn off even more of the soot. I believe that start/stop is only disabled during the first stage, and that if you pull up at a junction during the second stage it will end the regen and stop the engine.

As a follow up to this, here's an excerpt from the workshop manual listing the conditions that prevent Stop/start from operating...

You'll notice that a DPF Regen is not mentioned as being one of them, but as I said above, my car definitely inhibits stop/start when a regen is underway, for the first stage at least. Secondly, having a trailer attached is listed as inhibiting Stop/Start, whereas on mine Stop/Start definitely continues to operate when I have the caravan attached! So, it may be that the conditions have changed with the Ingenium engine (mine is a Ford/PSA, but the workshop manual I quoted above is for the Ingenium) or the manual could just be plain wrong....

 

[Mamil]

And remember according to CRC on the customer relations topic that "
regen only happens between 50 and 70 at a contestant speed. CRC also said if you dip below the speed it stops ".
So go figure why stop start would be involved at all if what they said is true

Well I can only talk from personal experience with my car, but I find that a regen will only start if you are cruising at a constant speed above 50, but once started it will continue through to completion unless you actually switch the engine off. I've definitely been sat at traffic lights with a regen happening!