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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
There has been a lot of discussion about the potential benefits of the upcoming Ingenium replacement for the current range of diesel power plants used in the DS. Much of this has focussed on the pros and cons of waiting for the new engines and the expected greater efficiency and lower emissions as compared to the well proven and refined over-time attributes of the current engines. Most of this debate is now irrelevant since it seems JLR are now taking orders for cars with the new engines, albeit accompanied by their well-proven vagueness and confusion as to whether these will be 2WD or 4WD and when they will be released etc. Suffice to say that I am very happy with my SD4 that so far (though since it is only days old I have reigned in my enthusiasm to try it too hard!) seems quiet, responsive and consistently delivering MPGs of 40+ on medium runs.

Not being an automotive engineer I have, however, wondered a little about some of the implications of the Ingenium engines. There seems to be few hard facts regarding how they will perform other than by extrapolating from their use in Jaguar cars. But we can expect that they will deliver better MPGs and the SD4 and clearly lower CO2 emissions - especially for 2WD versions.

In order to do this JLR have engineered in some sophisticated design to lower friction, adjust valve timings and lower weight. And, I understand that in the diesel engines the employ a mix of engine gas recirculation (EGF) and selective catalytic reduction (SCR) to lower NOx emissions. Both these technologies have been used for years on commercial vehicles and as well as on many cars.

SCR relies upon the continuous injection of a diesel emissions fluid (DEF - often referred to as 'AdBlue'). This is essentially a high purity aqueous Urea solution to helps to convert harmful gases during the combustion process. There do, though, seem to be some downsides to this. Leaving aside that whilst DEF is non-toxic in the normal sense, it is very harmful if spilt into waterways because it causes severe de-oygenation. It is also corrosive.

More significantly, it has to be kept topped up since the engine will essentially shut down into 'safe mode' if it runs too low. I believe that an engine consumes around 5% DEF compared to the volume of diesel burnt - so quite a lot over the course of a years driving. Although relatively cheap, it has to be bought and put into the car and, of course, held in a tank. I have heard nothing of how that will work. Will users be able to fill their own vehicles (as per VWs) or is this going to be a dealer-only task? How much will the DEF tank hold and where will it be? - it will, of course, offset to a small degree any engine weight reduction but perhaps more importantly will presumably take up space - say in the boot are or under the floor?

The technology demands a very accurate means of injecting measured amounts of fluid into the air/diesel mixture - no doubt this has been perfected during its use elsewhere but a potential source of more maintenance.

Euro6 is on its way and that must be good for the environment - and our health - but it seems to me that the hype surrounding its benefits is to an extent obscuring some aspects that are being given little exposure. This could simply be my own acknowledged ignorance but, if not, I think it would be helpful to have a little clarification.
 

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Some say the adblue should last until its service interval, but I can't see it. VW has the filler in the boot floor but I'm not 100% sure, which is filled during its service, I don't know if it lasts that long or if its just part of the service schedule.

I think the new Transit gets 4 fuel ups to 1 adblue.

The buses/coaches at work have been using it for years, they get topped up every night but think they could go 2 shifts perhaps longer before it needs topped up. The adblue tanks are very small in comparison to the fuel tank, so shouldn't take up much room in the car. I remember when we first got our Euro 5 buses, there was this monumental fear of adblue but now its just the norm.

It aint the nicest smelling stuff, it get mouth fuels of the fumes when checking over my big Volvo in the mornings. I glow blue in the dark :lol:
 

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Nice feedback guys. I have a simple question though before I buy the DS.
What is the 0-60 acceleration in the Auto SD4 2.2 today and what would be with the Ingenium 2.0 on a DS?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I'd also read somewhere that the DEF ('AdBlue') could only require filling at the regular service. If so, that would be good news.

However, doing a bit of very crude back of the envelope figuring I reach the following uneducated conclusions:

Assuming the new Ingenium engine has a service interval of,say, 20,000 miles (it is higher than the present SD4 interval of 16,000) and guessing that in real world terms the average driver achieves, say, 40 MPG across the range of urban and non-urban driving, this would require around 500 gallons of diesel.

I believe that the AdBlue is consumed at between 2% and 5% of that of the diesel. Taking the lower rate of 2%, this would equate to a need for 10 gallons of AdBlue between services (or, if a higher usage rate of 5%, 25 gallons). This is quite a volume of not very pleasant Urea that either has to be carried by your car - the not inconsiderable volume would need to be accommodated somewhere in the car. Alternatively, if owners are able to purchase and refill their DEF tanks themselves, assuming you drive annual 20,000 miles (perhaps higher than typical?) it suggests the need to purchase between 1 and 2 gallons of AdBlue a month

I must have something wrong here!?
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
In their unbounded enthusiasm for the new Ingenium engines, I am somewhat surprised that our esteemed motoring press have not given more details about how they will employ the selective catalytic reduction (SCR) system and the implications of using diesel emission fluid ('AdBlue'). Perhaps I've missed it. Anyway, this will certainly add costs which will significantly offset the reduction in vehicle tax. It seems to me that it adds inconvenience in terms of how you refill the system and the extra weight - and perhaps more significantly the need for an extra holding tank - has been kept rather quiet.

In my post under Euro6 deadline I posted the following link that provides some insight into how the DEF 'AdBlue' additive is used by Volkswagen in the selective catalytic reduction system: http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/technology/diesel/adblue. No doubt the new JLR Ingenium engines will be very similar.

VW suggest that consumption will be in the order of 1.5 litres per 600 odd miles though Mercedes also helpfully in their equivalent indicate that this will be dependent upon how the vehicle is driven - so probably higher then! (see -http://www.mercedes-benz.com.au/content/australia/mpc/mpc_australia__website/en/home_mpc/passengercars/home/service_parts/genuine_parts/lubricants_fluids/adblue.html). There is an image that shows the tank used by a Merc at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mercedes-Benz_E350_AdBlue_Tank.jpg which holds the several gallons (about 10?) of AdBlue required between services. Any guesses where the equivalent tank will be on the Ingenium engine DSs? - presumably no spare wheel / under floor storage then!

Dealerships will replenish the AdBlue at annual service (or more regularly if required) at cost - I guess JLR will have their own 'premium brand'. Moreover, the efficiency of the SCR system will no doubt have to be checked (at least at MOT) to ensure it is properly calibrated. Alternatively, You can, no doubt, do regular top-ups yourself provided you don't let the tank run too low - otherwise the car will not start. However, this looks like it could be a bit of a faff and the liquid needs to be handled with some care - any excess cannot be stored and will probably have to be disposed of appropriately. Already third-party servicing agents are beginning to offer an AdBlue refill service - example: http://www.prestigecarspecialists.com/services/adblue/.

There are claims also that the AdBlue tank needs to be periodically drained and cleaned because the Urea crystallises - this may, of course, be garbage. Already some are offering the ability to remove the AdBlue system and re-chip the engine. I wonder if that will be legal?! http://www.ecuflash.co/adblue-removal/.

I'm sure that JLR will shortly be giving us a detailed guide to all this.......
 

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There's plenty of talk on some of the VW / Audi Forums, nothing really for or against except the Unknown, some still scratching their heads a bit like the Stop / Start technology that was introduced a few years ago.

A bit like filling up a washer bottle really and probably costs about the same annount?

Its a crafty way of getting the emmisions down and getting the owner to take the hit on having it refuelled.
As some one said above, lets all just go back to Petrol.

Its cheaper than Diesel for a start.
 

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LR phan,
You seem to take a lot of interest in something that won't impinge on you for some years, until you next change, and who knows at that time what the new landscape might be. The press probably aren't all that interested in the adblue factor of the ingenium engines, as it'll fast become the norm, and they have probably already talked it to death in relation to other manufacturer's engines.

I'd say it's like any new thing that comes in, there is a bit of shouting about it at the start, and eventually it's taken as the norm. Regeneration of the cat on diesels is an example. For some cars its a real hassle, causing a lot of cars to go into limp mode, requiring a return to the dealer to have a "forced regeneration", but people have learned to generally accept it and it is little heard of these days. I feel the two tone bonnet that is mandated by the inclusion of a pedestrian airbag really hits the aesthetics, but hey its my choice to either go with it, or pick a car that doesn't have one.

If anyone today feels the additive isn't for them, go for a petrol. That's the choice. i do accept that supplying a car to the public without fully telling them of new running issues, isn't very customer friendly.
 
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