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Service interval

1M views 3K replies 215 participants last post by  Past master 
#1 ·
My DS, first registered in November 2015 has covered 8910 miles.
A few days ago, on the InControl App, a Service Due Alert message appeared advising that my car is due for a service.
This coincided with an occasional message (on first start up of the day) saying that the oil level is low. This message did not stay, but disappeared once the tyre setting message had been displayed. I checked the oil level on the dipstick and it is showing full.
I spoke to my dealer who says that maybe due to the type of driving I have been doing (!!) the car needs an oil and filter change.
Anybody else had a similar experience?
 

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#2,877 ·
S marty said:
For me its take the extra oil changes , use the car while it is warrantied, then buy a petrol. or swap sooner if the pcp finances make sense.
Fair points , however re the above in particular, that doesn't help those that don't intend to change their car every three years. It doesn't help those not on PCP or finance. Nor does it help those that have paid for new SCRF boxes at £1500 when they shouldn't have. Nor does it help those left stranded at the side of the road having been told by sales " yes it's fine for the school run" .
Two questions raised by owners on twitter yesterday
1)Why does my DEf on,y last 4000 miles from a full tank?
2) my oil service light is on my dealer says it needs a reset can any dealer do this , it's only a year old .

There are many owners totally unaware of the issues , which is why coming to a forum can help them decide. It's up to owners or prospective purchasers to make there own decisions with all the facts.

How many DS would be sold if JLR said :
  • Servicing is every 6-8 thousand miles on average.

    DEF will need refilling every 4000 miles, ( minor but annoying when originally 13000 estimate)

    The DPF has a fair chance of not lasting its initial designed lifetime through over regeneration.

    There is a problem with balance shafts that may need an engine change but it's pot luck who this happens to, we've no idea what's causing this yet.

    If you buy a used vehicle you may get the BPillar tick , that's pot luck too and the fix is a hammer and chisel to your door seams and roof . It's a 5 stage fix that doesn't always work. Plus a few welds on the BPillars
.

If it was one issue and resolved at no cost , that would be different , but some of these items are a hugely expense out of warranty and that to many people is an unacceptable risk.There is no fix either, one poor chap has had two new engines for the balance shaft issue.

The ins and outs of guessing what's wrong with the emissions system does no harm , in fact why don't JLR come clean and just say what it is, that would end the guessing. It's not driving style that's for sure.
The fact some University graduates found the cheat device in Robert Bosch EDC17 units is also interesting as JLR use the same., plus the XE has shown it had odd results when tested.

Discussion is always good as long as nastiness doesn't creep on.

People need to go in to any big purchase let alone a car with their eyes open .
 
#2,878 ·
S marty said:
With respect to some hard work done here there are no emmisions control experts on here, most 'knowledge' is is google and guesswork.
There's definitely been some hard work. Obtaining some of it involved risks too, especially for the JLR employees and associates that shared confidential information with us. The fact is that there's tons of hard evidence on this thread which JLR would never have disclosed. I suggest that "most" of what's here is solid and pretty well understood. Please tell us which "facts" are wrong so that people holding qualifications in maths, chemistry and physics can respond.

People are being advised on a course of action by others who are quite often wrong.
Giving advice? What we are all doing is sharing our views and any information that comes our way.

Read this thread from the start and you will see the learning journey and the amount of false conclusions and dead ends. yet at the end we still really dont know any more than at the start.
That sentence contradicts itself. Either it is a "learning journey" or it's not. If we don't know any more at the end than we did at the beginning, it's not been a "learning journey", now has it?

As I said I will not be arguing the ins and outs of it all anymore.
You just did. You are smearing the hard evidence with pejorative phrases like "amateur sleuthing" and "guesswork". Tell me that wasn't your intention.

For me its take the extra oil changes , use the car while it is warrantied, then buy a petrol. or swap sooner if the pcp finances make sense.
That is one sensible path. There are others.
 
#2,880 ·
S marty said:
yes my intention is to banish guess work and see evidence backed truths, whats wrong with that?

if you cant prove it it didnt happen
You can't banish reasoned thinking and discussion though , all you can do is scroll on by and ignore it if you are disinterested in it, or any topic for that matter.
 
#2,881 ·
S marty said:
yes my intention is to banish guess work and see evidence backed truths, whats wrong with that?

if you cant prove it it didnt happen
"The DS diesel emissions system doesn't work properly". I believe that statement to be true. It's much more than a guess, yet I would be hard pressed to prove it. But in the logic of your world, as expressed, it isn't happening. So was I wrong to make the statement?

Without guesswork science doesn't move forward. Guess - test - guess again - re-test. When you can't disprove the hypothesis, the scientific method accepts it as fact. If you just want the finished product, these forums are the wrong place to look. You need a library.
 
#2,882 ·
Here's a stray post from JLR on another thread that probably ought to be within the main Service Interval discussion. It clears up a potential misunderstanding that arose earlier after someone who had not experienced the problem for themselves questioned the motives of people who keep pressing JLR to come up with a proper solution.

NB. This is a recognised problem which "is still being investigated by the engineering team".

CRC@LandRover said:
Good afternoon,

Thank you all for your comments.

Should a vehicle require a service prior to the scheduled service a booking would need to be made with an approved Land Rover retailer to enable them to investigate the concerns further.

If an oil and filter change is required due to oil dilution this should be covered under the manufacturers warranty period.

Once the vehicle is outside of the manufacturers warranty each case is reviewed to establish if Land Rover will cover the cost of this. I would like to advise that many different factors are taken into consideration during the review.

Unfortunately at present this is still being investigated by the engineering team therefore I do not have any further updates I am able to provide to you at this time.

Thanks, Stacie
 
#2,883 ·
On the Discovery owners' forum matters go from bad to worse. They already had a thread with over 400 posts and 70,000 views on the same subject as this but somebody recently started a new one https://disco5.co.uk/forum/thread1508.html . One owner has had 3 oil changes in 13,500 miles but this time when he got it back the distance to next Oil Service was somewhat different. He is a high mileage driver.
Car Automotive design Personal luxury car Vehicle Gauge


Other thread Page 30 of 30 https://disco5.co.uk/forum/thread732-435.html
 

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#2,884 ·
At last a JLR dealer prepared to tell it like it is....

Discovery 5 Forum Member said:
A couple more hours later, at handover desk yet another technician: 'sorry, the guy you spoke to earlier today is unfortunately not available atm, here's your car, and sorry we just had time to do the paintjob.'

AN ALL CAPS INTERROGATION ENSUED (I really was p****d off).

Initially the conversation was along the lines of the dead parrot sketch, but after a lot of hesitation the guy finally admitted they know about the issue, it affects many if not all 3.0L diesels (not sure about SDVs though), but they are basically left in the cold by JLR, no info how to deal with it, or whether any patch or any other corrective action is coming or at least worked on, other than to try to convince the customer the problem does not exist, or that HE is the problem (aka driving style), and talk him to pay for the extra oil service, and if he is too assertive to give him the extra oil service for free as a 'courtesy'. That is pretty much as per the JLRP00100 mentioned on this thread. Horrendous.

Honestly, this is what I suspected all the time, but could not believe any sensible company would pursue such an obviously disastrous contingency policy for its own f*ck-up. Even VW cheated the authorities and not its own customers, at least not directly.

I really can't see this ending in any other way than hugely backfiring at JLR in the form of car rejections, class action lawsuits, lost sales due to reputation sinking further etc., unless they come with a real solution quickly!
 
#2,885 ·
Would love to know how many people in Australia have suffered from the dreaded oil dilution issue and how you have been treated by JLR. Despite the service compliance notice being freely available, JLR Aus insist that my driving style is the problem. It's horrendous that they are allowed to get away with this and it's time owners started complaining to the ACCC.
 
#2,886 ·
So our car was built Nov 2017. I've just got the oil sample test results back (which I'll post up this weekend when my Mac stops misbehaving), but at 7800 miles oil dilution just 2.7%. Lots of 9 mile round trip school runs in there (25 minutes) as well as longer runs and around town journeys. We've never had any DPF warning lights or mechanical issues whatsoever. We have approx 7000 miles to next service showing, now decreasing at a rate of about 1.3 miles per driven mile, so an oil change at roughly 13000, which in my book is quite long enough if one values engine longevity. The 21k interval is just BS. FE is quite high, but to me that is bedding in, hopefully. No B pillar issue, or other rattles come to that.

It does guzzle AdBlue. I've not logged it exactly, but it must've got through 20 litres. As my wife gets coffee and pastries served to her whilst she reads the paper at Harwoods shiny new mega showroom and service centre in Crawley, they do the top up plus wash and vacuum the car, so she's quite happy with the fairly frequent visits, all FOC under service plan.

Whilst there have clearly been many issues for others, I can't help wonder if more recent builds, like ours, are better sorted. My wife loves the car and we're very pleased with it. It fulfills the family wagon brief very well indeed. I've got an F-Pace on order, also 2.0D, on which I'll rack the miles quite rapidly, and will do the oil tests on that for comparison.
 
#2,887 ·
adeolly said:
I can't help wonder if more recent builds, like ours, are better sorted.
That's reasonably good news adeolly, according to the average in the April spreadsheet it should have been about 3% for that mileage. Are you obtaining above average fuel economy to go with the (relatively) modest oil dilution?

Once you have got the Mac working I'll round up all the recent oil samples and republish the spreadsheet, something which is well overdue.
 
#2,889 ·
S marty said:
This is compared to a sample across all euro6 diesel engines available in the UK ? it might be an excellent result we dont know.
I refer to the latest oil sample submitted to the forum.

In the context of other oil analyses submitted to this forum, 2.7% diesel dilution in 7,799 miles (0.346% per 1,000 miles) represents a statistically modest improvement over the average of 0.384% per 1,000 miles. The sample size quoted is 26 reports received and introduced to the spreadsheet up to February 2018. All the oil reports are on here together with a copy of the spreadsheet for any current owner who feels inclined to bring it up to date.

In relation to Iron deposits, the average of the 26 samples collated is 26.07 ppm Fe per 1,000 miles (average mass of Iron / average mileage). This sample contained 293 ppm accumulated over 7,799 miles, equivalent to 37.57 ppm per 1,000 miles. This is slightly higher than my rejected vehicle's 197 ppm from 5,677 miles, which equated to 34.70 ppm per 1,000 miles. A healthy diesel engine with a 12,000 mile service interval should accumulate Iron at the rate of no more than 8.33 ppm / 1,000 miles (cautionary) or 16.67 ppm / 1,000 miles (warning level). The references for these numbers have been posted plenty of times here and elsewhere.

(Incidentally, Adeolly, the physical mass of Iron in your sump oil (total 5.525 kg) is currently about 1.6 grams, roughly the weight of 2 paperclips...)

Millers have advised that this charge of oil should be changed due to high Iron and Silicon and "cautionary" fuel dilution. The viscosity of 8.46 cSt is significantly outside the lower bound for an SAE-30 weight oil, which requires a minimum viscosity of 9.3 cSt at 100 deg C. Filling the sump with oil of this viscosity would invalidate the warranty since the STJLR.03.5007 standard describes a 0W-30 oil.

As you say, Chicken George, this could be an excellent result compared to all EU6 diesel in the UK....we just don't know. :roll:
 
#2,890 ·
NoDiscoSport said:
(Incidentally, Adeolly, the physical mass of Iron in your sump oil (total 5.525 kg) is currently about 1.6 grams, roughly the weight of 2 paperclips...)

Millers have advised that this charge of oil should be changed due to high Iron and Silicon and "cautionary" fuel dilution. The viscosity of 8.46 cSt is significantly outside the lower bound for an SAE-30 weight oil, which requires a minimum viscosity of 9.3 cSt at 100 deg C. Filling the sump with oil of this viscosity would invalidate the warranty since the STJLR.03.5007 standard describes a 0W-30 oil.

As you say, Chicken George, this could be an excellent result compared to all EU6 diesel in the UK....we just don't know. :roll:
Thanks NoDiscoSport - I was wondering how 293ppm equated to a physical item. With regard to the oil dropping out of the viscosity bounds; any clues why? Is 2.7% dilution and/or the FE enough to do that, or do we just not know.
 
#2,891 ·
adeolly said:
With regard to the oil dropping out of the viscosity bounds; any clues why? Is 2.7% dilution and/or the FE enough to do that, or do we just not know.
You've got it in one. SAE 30 oils are required to retain a "hot" (100 deg C) viscosity of between 9.3 and 12.4 cSt. The Castrol Edge Pro data sheet below shows a nominal viscosity of only 9.52 cSt although BP-Castrol told me it does vary a few points either side, while the sample of new oil I sent to Millers in July 2017 had a measured viscosity of 9.71 cSt. So, as 30 weight oils go, this isn't a particularly thick one to start with and just a few ml of diesel fuel will knock it down to SAE20. Your 2.7% dilution is equivalent to pouring 175 ml of neat diesel into a new charge of oil and this is what accounts for the 8.6 cSt viscosity found by Millers. Is that a big viscosity reduction? Is that a lot of diesel? Or is it really not that much? How long is a piece of string?

Whether or not the diluted oil by itself is capable of damaging the engine is debateable. It's possible (probable, even) that modest dilution in the range of 2% to 5% (up to 325 ml in 6.5 litres) won't do any damage to a modern engine that has been built to single-digit micron tolerances (See The Micron Factory) as this one apparently was. My own 2500 cc Toyota petrol engine runs on SAE20 as do plenty of other modern vehicles - though, come to think of it, I don't know whether there are any diesels. Maybe someone else can answer that one. So, maybe running on slightly thinner oil is no big deal. Perhaps JLR could easily have specified an SAE20. In that case, why didn't they?

This engine does have some bearing assemblies that might be extremely sensitive to loss of viscosity and I am thinking here about the balancer shafts in particular. They run at double engine speed and they are designed deliberately to create asymmetric loads on the crank case. The needle rollers of the balancer shaft bearings are constantly exposed to "out of balance" forces. Think about it: needle bearings (chosen for their high speed, rather than for their load-bearing properties), running permanently out of balance, spinning at up to 8,000 rpm. Oh, and they're not pressure fed with oil like the big ends, merely "misted" with un-pressurised, diluted lubricant. I am not saying that the diesel dilution effects on an already-thin oil is responsible for the high number of balancer shaft failures but it does make you wonder why there have been so many failures and the need for a JLR bulletin on the subject. So, maybe diluted oil is more damaging than it seemed at first...

There are very high traces of Iron and elevated Silicon - but Copper, Aluminium and Chromium are, to all intents and purposes, normal. What's going on in these engines that causes them to lose so much Iron, but none of the other, more typical, wear metals? It could be metal from piston rings (2 of these on each piston + 1 oil scraper ring), bore liners (cast Iron, would also explain the Silicon), piston skirts ("slapping" the bores during active regeneration) or, as already mentioned, high speed roller bearings on the balancer shafts or the 10 roller bearings that support the twin camshafts. I favour the bore liners but I have no supporting proof, just a hunch.

Is this amount of Iron a problem in the long term? No-one really knows. Will it diminish with time? No-one knows, all owners can do is monitor and hope for the best. I asked JLR a number of what I thought were sensible, precautionary questions at a time when my head was telling me this car could prove to be a liability but my heart was saying, "nah, it'll be alright, just take a chance and enjoy the best bits." Jaguar Land Rover said nothing. My head won the debate. These are the questions and, if JLR is reading this, I'm sure there will still be quite a few owners looking to hear something positive on this subject.

VeryDiscoSport said:
Please answer the following questions regarding the lubrication properties of the standard oil when subjected to these levels of diesel contamination:

a) What is the minimum viscosity at 100 degrees C (in centistokes, cSt) that the engine lubricant must maintain at all times in order to ensure adequate lubrication of all the moving parts?
b) Describe any test results that JLR has obtained to demonstrate the Ingenium engine's ability to withstand FIO dilution levels above 2% when starting with a new charge of SAE 0W-30 ACEA C2 / STJLR.03.5007 oil?
c) What is the expected useful service life of the 2.0 litre Ingenium turbo diesel when subjected to continuous cycles of oil dilution in line with the current software programming of the SIM? ( i.e. when FIO rises continuously from 0% to 6.1% every 10,000 miles, assuming STJLR.03.5007 oil is used)
d) Please provide guidance on wear metal levels that JLR consider would be acceptable to achieve the stated useful service life of the engine.
e) Regarding ways to compensate for loss of viscosity due to high FIO levels - What would be the maximum viscosity at 100 degrees C (in centistokes, cSt) of a synthetic multi-grade oil suitable for use in the Ingenium turbo diesel? (e.g. would it be acceptable to switch to SAE 0W-40 ?)
f) What, if any, fuel penalty would result from the use of such oil?
 

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#2,892 ·
After a series of "oil service required" alerts,
"in 2100 miles", 4921 mileage
"in 1050 miles", 5098 mileage
"in 800 miles", 5717 mileage
I booked the DS in at our dealership for them to check it over under warranty.
To my surprise, no more alerts showed on ignition but after a couple of weeks I checked the service info on the menu and it was reading "oil service required in 0 mies.

Yesterday I sent off a Millers Oils test, before the garage took the car today.

I've just had a call to say they've given it a software update and forced a DPF regen, but that at 7.1% dilution the oil did not need changing. They have reset the oil service required display.
I asked what the maximum dilution was and was told it was 11%.
The total mileage is 6295

It will be interesting to see what the Millers results say.
Any thoughts?
 
#2,893 ·
Hi guys
i am trying to understand what all this oil dilution is about.
Probably my poor English is the reason.
Do you mind if i ask (even a pm can help in order to not mess your posts)
Is this oil dilution affect all?
I never had any issue with oil etc. I do all my changes as it is mentioned on the handbook... almost 1 in a year.
Can someone explain me with little words what is all about?

Thank you in advance
 
#2,894 ·
Higher mileage update from me as second owner of the car. First owner did 21k per year so was basically on annual services. Now I have it, I have been doing fewer miles (but mostly still 50-70mph motorway runs for 30+ minutes).

So next service is due Oct 2019 or 63k. Car has done 55k. Service due light popped up due to previous annual mileage. Dropped the car off for MOT, N025 and N118. Oil and filter done on recall oil dilution was factor 7.

They wanted to do the full service even though it's not due (and they have changed the oil and filter as per the above)! Plus they can't diagnose the see-saw lateral suspension fault which means the car pitches and rolls heavily at higher speed in motorway ruts and camber changes/ridges - must be a strut or something?

How to JLR expect to keep customers?
 
#2,895 ·
Leoniums said:
Hi guys
i am trying to understand what all this oil dilution is about.
Probably my poor English is the reason.
Do you mind if i ask (even a pm can help in order to not mess your posts)
Is this oil dilution affect all?
I never had any issue with oil etc. I do all my changes as it is mentioned on the handbook... almost 1 in a year.
Can someone explain me with little words what is all about?

Thank you in advance
Diesel gets past the piston rings and bore liners and dilutes the oil with diesel. This means more oil changes than scheduled (time or mileage) to replace the oil (which has become an oil+fuel mixture).
 
#2,896 ·
My second DS, much loved for its long range comfort and off road capability like its predecessor has flashed up a series of "oil service required" alerts,
"in 2100 miles", 4921 mileage
"in 1050 miles", 5098 mileage
"in 800 miles", 5717 mileage
I booked the DS in at our dealership for them to check it over under warranty.
To my surprise, no more alerts showed on ignition, but, after a couple of weeks, I checked the service info on the menu and it was reading "oil service required in 0 mies.
I sent off a Millers Oils test, before the garage took the car.
To my surprise, the dealership called to say they've given it a software update and forced a DPF regen, but that at 7.1% dilution the oil did not need changing. They have reset the oil service required display. The report sheet does not mention the actual dilution but says they checked the oil and found it was OK.
I asked what the maximum dilution was and was told it was 11%.
The total mileage is 6295
The Millers test came back with a big red X and a fuel dilution level of 6.6. The comment says, "Critical fuel dilution identified. Wear Metal Analysis identifies high Iron and Silicon and we would advise this oil is changed."
Any thoughts?
Jan
PS I'm planning to post the Millers test results. whats the best way to do this? They have been emailed through as a PDF file
 
#2,897 ·
The Millers Oils results, now posted to the correct forum, came through showing 6.6% dilution after 6245 miles driven from new.
A call to the service manager, and very long time on hold, eventually brought forth the following information;
Bulletin N170v2 has been applied (I cannot see this bulletin as it is confidential to JLR) but apparently it includes an udate to the software which determines when an "oil service" required reminder is displayed.
Apparently a sliding scale between 6.2% and 8% now applies to oil dilution. Mine was recorded at 7.1% so doesn't qualify for a "one off" goodwill oil change at this time.
I was also informed the DS has a sensor which directly registers diesel dilution in the oil and does not rely on a computer algorithm; this was in response to my concern that the Next service... Oil service is reading 12600 miles. The reading 0 miles before it was reset. Surely if the sensor can detect 7.1% dilution it would be flagging the need for an oil service sooner than 12600 miles.
He dismissed the Millers oils recommendation that the oil should be changed as motivated by thier desire to sell more oil!
When I asked about the interim oil services I thought were included in my 5 year service plan he intimated that these were only included in some plans, and may not to apply to drivers who had low mileage. A call to a trusted dealership resulted in a screenshot of my service plan which clearly shows 4 interim and 2 standard services are included. They also suggested I should mention "JLR P00100 referance number = Oil dilution if over 6.1% must be changed & this is from 1.6.17" .
Could JLR be trialling different dilution levels in different geographical areas?
I have asked the service manager to write to me with all of the information he provided during our phone call.
 
#2,898 ·
I see there was no mention of "incorrect driving style". Maybe they decided that its just too ridiculous for words to try and blame the loss of 15,000 expected service miles on something a customer could do. Could you say when this car was first registered please?
 
#2,899 ·
Hi NDS,
There were lots of veiled references to driving style. At one point he averaged my yearly usage, around 10K and said that equated to 27 miles a day and would rarley allow for passive regeneration. Interestingly, he also said the car needed to be driven at speed for between 50 and 60 miles for this to take place fully. I pointed out that like many people my driving includes a variety of journey lengths including trips to Scotland and plenty of driving on dual carriageways.

The car is a n MY18 SE Tech 150 manual, built for me and handed over at the very end of Dec 2017. I've loked myself out of my account and am hoping to come back as Jan where there are full details included in my signature. ;)
Do you know if there is an actual sensor that tests the oil?
I have had a very brief emailo from, someone else at the dealership, saying that the dilution level was 7.1. The email has a 400 word semi threatening intellectual property,"the information contained here may be confidential...etc" disclaimer sso I'm not sure if I can post the whole thing here.
 
#2,900 ·
I shouldn't let that put you off posting it - it correlates to YOUR property after all! If you're that worried, redact any identifiable information from it and then post it. They don't own you, you know!
 
#2,901 ·
Lutra said:
Do you know if there is an actual sensor that tests the oil?
No, that sounds like complete dealer BS. The dilution number from the car diagnostics is calculated, not measured.
 
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