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DPF Fault !!!!!

303K views 577 replies 129 participants last post by  Ray C 
#1 ·
Driving home tonight and the car went into limp mode. Phoned LR Assist - they dispatched the AA, AA turn up and run a diagnostic check which shows a DPF fault. Fault cleared, car working again, will chase LR for a replacement tomorrow.
 
#252 ·
Hi Rachael, did your dealership cover the DPF cost for your car? My local dealership refused to cover it ( nearly £1400) although my car is still under warranty. They also blame my " driving style", even with the fact that the amber light turned red within 9 miles. I complained to JLR and am waiting for the response. According to your experience, I would expect the same reply.
This is obviously a defective product. Is there any way we can get the government to intervene?
 
#254 ·
Rachael, I think the dealer sold this car recklessly given what you have said about your journey mix and annual mileage. With the exception of some "next generation" diesels now being manufactured by Mercedes, none of the 2017-2108 diesels are suitable for you. So its no surprise that you have run headlong into problems so soon. The thing that you need to do now is develop the optimum strategy for getting rid of it as soon as possible. To that end there are two aspects of this situation that you need to get up to speed on.

The legal landscape is provided by the Consumer Rights Act 2015 and I recommend that you get yourself to a position where you understand what is meant by rejection under sections 9 through 11. One or more of these provisions will provide you the legal platform that you require to succeed in your rejection (which I think you will, based on similar cases involving the DS). You have to do the work though and, I'm sorry to say it, this is going to take up a big chunk of your private life if you want to escape with as much of your money as possible.

The technical framework for rejection is based, amongst other things, on:
1) A general design problem which has the potential to afflict all 2.0L Ingenium diesels (Evoque and DS). This causes higher than expected DPF activity and premature oil dilution. It can reduce the service interval to under 4,000 miles according to user reports on the forum. The place to start learning about this is the document JLRP00100 which can be downloaded here: https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5379&start=215
2) Because there is no "passive regeneration" of the DPF on your car, the car relies exclusively on a self-cleaning process (technically this is "active regeneration") but this doesn't complete properly unless the car is driven in a particular way. Some people see this as an imposition which is inconsistent with buying a consumer product that we should be entitled to believe will perform just as our previous cars have done. As some people have said, "Don't speak to me about my driving style. You didn't mention it when I paid you £40K for this heap of crap, so please don't mention it now. In any case, I haven't changed my driving style: what has happened is that, as described in your own document JLRP00100, you made significant mistakes when you designed and built this car."
3) Additionally there are specific problems with the SCRF (DPF) fitted to the DS and Evoque which causes the machine to skip (or to dramatically shorten) the amber warning phase of the DPF full warning. This makes problem 2 more severe and creates special conditions that can't be overcome even if you DO change your driving style to comply with the manufacturer's perverse driving requirements. Check your VIN here to see if this could apply to you: https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7558

You'll need to make your claim for rejection on what you have experienced. But, bearing in mind that its cause will in all probability be one of the technical problems above, you will stand a better chance of the rejection sailing through smoothly if you present an immutable case based on known faults that you can then demonstrate are affecting your car. I think, at first glance, that you have ample grounds for rejection on ANY of the sections 9 through 11, but it's best not to speculate until the dealership has had an opportunity to check whether or not you have an SCRF marked FB. You certainly appear to have the symptoms. To comply with the rejection protocols you have to give them the opportunity to make one attempt at fixing things, but it may be that you are already past that point. Another thing to bear in mind is that, at this stage of the game, the onus to prove "on the balance of probabilities" that the fault existed at the time of sale lies with you - but don't be put off by that because whatever is causing your problems was almost certainly present when you took delivery.

PM me if you have any specific questions.
 
#256 ·
Henning said:
Incorrect. Mercedes have zero problems even with their "current generation" engines. It's simple - they know what they are doing and JLR don't.
In the interests of objectivity, I'd say that over-simplifies the issue somewhat. Mercedes' "current generation" of engines include eleven that were tested by Emissions Analytics and 8 of these clearly got though their NOx emissions approval process using "questionable" means. None of these cars should produce any more than 80 mg / km of NO and NO2 but more than half of them exceed the limit by 400%. If these Mercedes cars are using moderate amounts of urea solution, giving good mpg and don't suffer from diesel dilution caused by post injection, it's not necessarily because Mercedes know what they are doing. It's more likely to be because their nitrogen oxides reduction system isn't getting in the way of the various carbon oxidation processes.

With regard to the high oil dilution problem with DS and Evoque vehicles it's helpful to imagine what the situation might have been, had these two LR D8 SUVs not been delivered from September 2015 with their NOx after treatment system working nineteen to the dozen. This see-saw of carbon versus nitrogen after treatment processes is what I was referring to. I see nothing in the figures below to suggest that Mercedes resolved this any better than JLR did in 8 out of the 11 cars tested by Equa. They just came up with a different compromise to an unsolvable equation.

If these cars were ever to be the subject of a recall to have the emissions software "adjusted" (like VW), owning one might prove to be equally expensive, and for the same reasons, as owning a DS or Evoque diesel today.
Product Azure Font Rectangle Screenshot
 

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#257 ·
It makes sense. My car has had absolutely no problems with the DPF but could only score a "D" on Equa's RDE, equivalent to EU4 (3X the EU6 level). Some of those other Mercs could be producing over 500% too much NOx.
 
#258 ·
In the interests of clarity, it seems as though my point has been misunderstood. My apologies if my English is not quite so eloquent as others. I suppose that it must have something to do with my name ;)

I was, in fact, responding to the following statement that was made:

"With the exception of some "next generation" diesels now being manufactured by Mercedes, none of the 2017-2108 diesels are suitable for you."

and was not implying that Mercedes or, for that matter, any others have zero problems with their emissions.

My point was, and this is confirmed by PhilMabbots17 there are absolutely no problems with the DPF. There are, to the best of my knowledge (and I am very directly involved), no cases of people like Rachael running into problems and no cases of owners rejecting the Mercedes vehicles for this reason as has been the case with DS owners.

Anyway, I shall certainly not be buying a DS which was what I had in mind when I joined this forum. There are simply too many problems with the vehicle and too much uncertainly about the company.
 
#259 ·
Henning said:
as, in fact, responding to the following statement that was made:

"With the exception of some "next generation" diesels now being manufactured by Mercedes, none of the 2017-2108 diesels are suitable for you."

and was not implying that Mercedes or, for that matter, any others have zero problems with their emissions.

My point was, and this is confirmed by PhilMabbots17 there are absolutely no problems with the DPF. There are, to the best of my knowledge (and I am very directly involved), no cases of people like Rachael running into problems and no cases of owners rejecting the Mercedes vehicles for this reason as has been the case with DS owners.
I got your point, Henning, I just don't think it covered enough of the terrain. Judging by the extraordinarily high NOx output exposed by the Equa RDE tests, it is not inconceivable that Mercedes used the acoustic function on board the Bosch EDC17 in some or all of those Mercedes-Benz cars to obtain much lower NOx figures than the cars can achieve on the road. That puts owners at risk of the effects of a recall if their car is included wthin the 3,000,000 vehicles that MB are proposing to modify. (NY Times)

If the proposed software modification is similar to the cheat device removal operation carried out by VW, a large number of MB owners could soon find themselves in a similar predicament to the owners in this article oublished in The Guardian. These accounts sound uncannily similar to the problems faced by DS and Evoque owners who drive their cars "normally". Until now, manufacturers hadn't spent nearly enough to meet the regulations whilst simultaneously avoiding this problem which is caused by the conflicting requirements of NOx and HC/PM treatments respectively. From what I learned in this post, only when engines like OM 654q become the norm will this problem go away.

It would be unfortunate if owners were to jump "out of the frying pan and into the fire" regarding this issue. Perhaps PM17 will enlighten us all as to the effects of having a cheat device removed, should the 2016MY GLC be included within the 3 million vehicle Mercedes Benz recall.
 
#260 ·
More from Daimler on the OM654q diesel. I was looking to see whether it had a dedicated fuel injector which would avoid having to use post injection but it appears that this advanced design won't need much by way of active regeneration. The emphasis is on compactness and heat management, also notable is the provision of auxiliary nitrogen reduction downstream of a catalysed, close-coupled sDPF, MB presumably having realised that in the "real world" a single SCRoF device simply isn't enough.

The engine's compact dimensions allow even more flexibility in adapting to different vehicle models. The interfaces between drive unit and vehicle have been standardised across all model series. More especially, all the elements of the exhaust aftertreatment system are now configured directly on the engine itself and no longer on the vehicle.

Exhaust emissions: all set for the future

The new diesel engine is designed to meet future emissions legislation (RDE - Real Driving Emissions). In contrast to the current NEDC measurement cycle, the WLTP (Worldwide harmonized Light vehicles Test Procedure) cycle is aimed at ensuring that the figures for standard and real-world consumption are close together in future. In addition, it is planned in Europe to introduce a measuring procedure for Real Driving Emissions (RDE). This, too, is actively supported by Mercedes-Benz.

All components of relevance for efficient emissions reduction are installed directly on the engine. Supported by insulation measures and improved catalyst coatings, there is absolutely no need for engine temperature management during cold starting or at low load. In addition to the advantages in terms of emissions, this results in fuel savings, especially on short journeys. Thanks to the near-engine configuration, exhaust aftertreatment has a low heat loss and optimal operating conditions

Multiway exhaust gas recirculation

The new engine is equipped with multiway exhaust gas recirculation (EGR). This combines cooled high-pressure and low-pressure EGR. It makes it possible to significantly further reduce the untreated emissions from the engine across the entire engine map, with the centre of combustion being optimised for fuel economy.

The exhaust gas from the turbocharger is sent first to a diesel oxidation catalyst. It next passes the downdraft mixer, in which AdBlue® is added by means of a water-cooled dosing module. Thanks to a specially developed mixing area, the AdBlue® evaporates over the shortest possible distance in the exhaust gas stream and is distributed very uniformly on the surface of the downstream sDPF (particulate filter with coating to reduce nitrogen oxides). Positioned behind the sDPF is an SCR catalyst for further catalytic reduction of the nitrogen oxides. Only then does the treated exhaust gas enter the exhaust system
 
#261 ·
That 1950cc engine becomes available on the GLC next year. On the C-class (practically identical) it's mounted in line with the Turbo, DOC and SDPF on the right side beneath the engine cover. all tightly wrapped in metallic insulation. There's no evidence of a separate diesel injector. Thanks for the heads up, but if they do issue an emissions recall I'll decline and upgrade to one with the OM654 as soon as it's available. Servicing remains as before at 15K/12 months.
 
#262 ·
hi ,
can anyone help with any advise , my car is in JLR and they are telling me its my fault that the dpf is full and that its not under guarantee due to the type of journeys i do, they are asking for over £1700 to correct it I'm absolutely devastated and and can't believe it I've had the car 2 yrs and its done 13000 mls i have a maintenance policy with my lease company , but they are saying its between me and JLR,
i was never told prior to leasing that it had to be driven in such a particular way ,and don't fell I've done anything neglectful , i drive it the same way I've driven all my cars , sometimes short journeys sometimes long etc,
 
#264 ·
sparky1 said:
hi ,
can anyone help with any advise , my car is in JLR and they are telling me its my fault that the dpf is full and that its not under guarantee due to the type of journeys i do, they are asking for over £1700 to correct it I'm absolutely devastated and and can't believe it I've had the car 2 yrs and its done 13000 mls i have a maintenance policy with my lease company , but they are saying its between me and JLR,
i was never told prior to leasing that it had to be driven in such a particular way ,and don't fell I've done anything neglectful , i drive it the same way I've driven all my cars , sometimes short journeys sometimes long etc,
You could try rejecting it ?

There's plenty info on the forum about the faulty DPFs with an FB marking , and also JLRP00100 which explains why the vehicle regenerates more than expected.
Also search for the misrepresentation Act where by when you were so,d the vehicle you were not told of this "specific driving style " required or that your driving style would affect it.
 
#265 ·
My DS is MY18 build and just a year old
Have had no issue with it till a few days ago, all of a sudden the car went into limp mode and the dash's said DPF is full! Then my diesel gauge dropped from 50% to 30%
Called roadside assist and they towed the car
The service team in Australia has been soo busy they haven't even looked at my car

Has this happen to anyone else
No pre warning to say the particulate is almost full and to drive for 20min at above 60km

I should add JLR contacted me a month ago for a 'software' update and I took my car in 3 weeks ago to have this done

Maybe there is a bug in the new software ?
 
#266 ·
Pinkdawn said:
My DS is MY18 build and just a year old
Have had no issue with it till a few days ago, all of a sudden the car went into limp mode and the dash's said DPF is full! Then my diesel gauge dropped from 50% to 30%
Called roadside assist and they towed the car
The service team in Australia has been soo busy they haven't even looked at my car

Has this happen to anyone else
No pre warning to say the particulate is almost full and to drive for 20min at above 60km

I should add JLR contacted me a month ago for a 'software' update and I took my car in 3 weeks ago to have this done

Maybe there is a bug in the new software ?
Hi
I have merged your thread to the DPF thread if you read upwards , you may find some helpful background info.
It has been seen before where the light goes almost straight to red, it is known by JLR that sometimes the only warning you get is 2.1 seconds.
 
#267 ·
Barnsh said:
Pinkdawn said:
My DS is MY18 build and just a year old
Have had no issue with it till a few days ago, all of a sudden the car went into limp mode and the dash's said DPF is full! Then my diesel gauge dropped from 50% to 30%
Called roadside assist and they towed the car
The service team in Australia has been soo busy they haven't even looked at my car

Has this happen to anyone else
No pre warning to say the particulate is almost full and to drive for 20min at above 60km

I should add JLR contacted me a month ago for a 'software' update and I took my car in 3 weeks ago to have this done

Maybe there is a bug in the new software ?
Hi
I have merged your thread to the DPF thread if you read upwards , you may find some helpful background info.
It has been seen before where the light goes almost straight to red, it is known by JLR that sometimes the only warning you get is 2.1 seconds.
Thanks Barnsh
I have had a read of thread and I'm not liking the fate of my car :(
So in short JLR knows and just blames the drivers driving style
 
#268 ·
Pinkdawn said:
Barnsh said:
Pinkdawn said:
My DS is MY18 build and just a year old
Have had no issue with it till a few days ago, all of a sudden the car went into limp mode and the dash's said DPF is full! Then my diesel gauge dropped from 50% to 30%
Called roadside assist and they towed the car
The service team in Australia has been soo busy they haven't even looked at my car

Has this happen to anyone else
No pre warning to say the particulate is almost full and to drive for 20min at above 60km

I should add JLR contacted me a month ago for a 'software' update and I took my car in 3 weeks ago to have this done

Maybe there is a bug in the new software ?
Hi
I have merged your thread to the DPF thread if you read upwards , you may find some helpful background info.
It has been seen before where the light goes almost straight to red, it is known by JLR that sometimes the only warning you get is 2.1 seconds.
Thanks Barnsh
I have had a read of thread and I'm not liking the fate of my car :(
So in short JLR knows and just blames the drivers driving style
Yes that's exactly what they are doing m but it is incorrect , your handbook says you should get an orange light to warn you, you didn't , therefor the car is defective , you had no opportunity to clear the DPF.

They can Interigate the system and show when the lights came on , if they do this ask them how long the orange light was displayed for. The reason for asking is sometimes you only get 2.1 seconds , JLR have admitted it is quite likely this can be missed by the driver as they are concentrating on driving and not looking at the dash constantly for a light.

Fight hard and stick to your guns.

Aslk then if this check has been carried out too
https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7558&hilit=SSM+
 
#270 ·
Barnsh

So when they call me tomorrow to tell me what they have found do I just ask 'have you also carried out SSM73697'

I had look at the thread but omg it's so confusing I don't even know what I'm reading :(
 
#271 ·
Main thing to ask them was
1. Why you saw no warning , don't take any excuses the handbook says it will warn you.
2. Why all of a sudden has this defect arisen when you have had no issue for the previous xxxx miles and your driving style hasn't changed.
3. Have they checked the SSM 73697 above can they say you do not have a DPF with the FB marking on it.
4. Have they done a full l test including leak test on the exhaust / SCRF system ( if it leaks it doesn't work properly.

That should do for starters.
 
#272 ·
Barnsh said:
Main thing to ask them was
1. Why you saw no warning , don't take any excuses the handbook says it will warn you.
2. Why all of a sudden has this defect arisen when you have had no issue for the previous xxxx miles and your driving style hasn't changed.
3. Have they checked the SSM 73697 above can they say you do not have a DPF with the FB marking on it.
4. Have they done a full l test including leak test on the exhaust / SCRF system ( if it leaks it doesn't work properly.

That should do for starters.
Ahhh! Makes sense now
Thank you so much for the starters!
 
#273 ·
Any news with your case mate?

bjm said:
julzmd said:
bjm said:
We"very tried to get a solicitor to look at the case for us but have been unable to find one in our town who will take them on. Most either claim conflict of interest as they obviously have Tues with the dealer or don't have anyone who are trained in consumer Law.

I guess that is the drawback of taking on one of the biggest dealers in a small town...

Yes the Financial Ombudsman is our last resort. I will be calling them today. We will also be putting in another call to the finance company today with the hope that we might get into someone a little more sympathetic to our cause.
I am very interested in your case. I have the same exact problem. The dealer replacd my DPF twice. They said it is a common problem and they are waiting for JLR for the software update.
As well as the dpf problem I have loads of other issues. My biggest issue right now is getting JLR to admit the car is a lemon
 
#274 ·
Our solicitor served the dealer with a legal rejection letter. The dealer called us in for meeting and asked would we consider any other product they sell as a trade. Our response to this is that we have already been down that road and we are not interested in trading our faulty vehicle, we strongly believe that we should either receive a refund or replacement vehicle. Each time they have tried this in the past they have offered us a generous trade in but the minimum spend we have been offered is $10k changeover for a (newer) lower spec vehicle. They also suggested that there is no scope for negotiation with JLR if there are no open cases on the vehicle.

We booked the vehicle in and took it back to the workshop for the 13th time. At the same time we sent a letter to both the dealer and to JLR saying we don't want the car back. We have informed them that we are not satisfied with the quality for a premium luxury vehicle and would not have purchased it had we known it would have this many problems. We have also raised some concerns about the safety aspect of some of the faults.

Unfortunately JLR have responded by saying "We apologise that your vehicle has not lived up to your expectations and your experience being disappointing.

We are aware your vehicle is currently at XYZ Land Rover and will liaise with the service department is establishing a suitable outcome for yourself as well as repairing your vehicle under warranty.
".

I am driving their loan car at present and was informed yesterday that they are waiting for parts to repair...

Here is the list of faults/problems the car was booked in for this time (all occured since last visit to dealer).

1. Parking sensor display failed to appear on dashboard
2. Parking sensors failed to engage automatically
3. False positive on park sensors when stopped at traffic lights
4. Sound failed on entertainment unit, including parking sensors front and rear
5. Reversing camera failed to turn on when reverse gear engaged
- Only reverse sensor appears on display
- Full reverse camera graphic displays with black where camera image should be
6. Tailgate opened while pulling away from the curb
7. Interior lights came on and dash indicated door open after driving for several minutes (no door found to be open)
8. DSC light flashes after travelling over speed humps
9. Park sensor volume appears on the screen when pulling away after starting vehicle if sensors are activated during system boot
10. Ambient lighting changes colour from red to white randomly
11. Electrical burning smell from air vents (no smell outside vehicle)
12. Central dash display change from distance remaining to driving style by itself
13. Reverse traffic detection not available
14. Only one seat heater appears on the display
15. Smart key not recognised
16. Orange exhaust filter requires self-cleaning
17. Dash lighting alternating between bright and dim several times whilst driving.
 
#275 ·
bjm said:
Our solicitor served the dealer with a legal rejection letter. The dealer called us in for meeting and asked would we consider any other product they sell as a trade. Our response to this is that we have already been down that road and we are not interested in trading our faulty vehicle, we strongly believe that we should either receive a refund or replacement vehicle. Each time they have tried this in the past they have offered us a generous trade in but the minimum spend we have been offered is $10k changeover for a (newer) lower spec vehicle. They also suggested that there is no scope for negotiation with JLR if there are no open cases on the vehicle.

We booked the vehicle in and took it back to the workshop for the 13th time. At the same time we sent a letter to both the dealer and to JLR saying we don't want the car back. We have informed them that we are not satisfied with the quality for a premium luxury vehicle and would not have purchased it had we known it would have this many problems. We have also raised some concerns about the safety aspect of some of the faults.

Unfortunately JLR have responded by saying "We apologise that your vehicle has not lived up to your expectations and your experience being disappointing.

We are aware your vehicle is currently at XYZ Land Rover and will liaise with the service department is establishing a suitable outcome for yourself as well as repairing your vehicle under warranty.
".

I am driving their loan car at present and was informed yesterday that they are waiting for parts to repair...

Here is the list of faults/problems the car was booked in for this time (all occured since last visit to dealer).

1. Parking sensor display failed to appear on dashboard
2. Parking sensors failed to engage automatically
3. False positive on park sensors when stopped at traffic lights
4. Sound failed on entertainment unit, including parking sensors front and rear
5. Reversing camera failed to turn on when reverse gear engaged
- Only reverse sensor appears on display
- Full reverse camera graphic displays with black where camera image should be
6. Tailgate opened while pulling away from the curb
7. Interior lights came on and dash indicated door open after driving for several minutes (no door found to be open)
8. DSC light flashes after travelling over speed humps
9. Park sensor volume appears on the screen when pulling away after starting vehicle if sensors are activated during system boot
10. Ambient lighting changes colour from red to white randomly
11. Electrical burning smell from air vents (no smell outside vehicle)
12. Central dash display change from distance remaining to driving style by itself
13. Reverse traffic detection not available
14. Only one seat heater appears on the display
15. Smart key not recognised
16. Orange exhaust filter requires self-cleaning
17. Dash lighting alternating between bright and dim several times whilst driving.
Back to the solicitor and copy in the ACCC
 
#276 ·
Hi All
I have a discovery sport with the ingenium engine 2017 make. It's been flashing the Dpf self clean needed message every week. Now I have spoken to a few others who have rarely ever seen the message though they too do short drives mostly like me. I am told it's because of my driving style as in short city rides under 60 km/hr. Has anyone else had a similar problem? I really think there's something wrong and at weekly frequency it's more than just driving style! What are your thoughts?
 
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