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P0716-64 Turbine/input shaft speed sensor A-circuit range/performance

9K views 17 replies 6 participants last post by  green genie 
#1 ·
Hello all,
I've been meaning to post this for months now. We have a 66 plate ingenium Disco sport Auto which has had the above fault happen several times and continues to do so. I was wondering whether anyone else had had faults with the Autobox's other than the two posts I found when searching.
Ours has had a new Autobox, has had engineers from JLR & ZF data logging when the fault happens. The data was sent to ZF Germany for analysis and they were unable to explain the cause of the fault. Another Disco sport was provided for my wife to try in the same circumstances in the same spot that it most regularly occurs and that vehicle faulted too.
JLR are now saying that it is a "trait" of the vehicle and nothing is wrong with it.
We have also had several other ongoing issues, with the Infotainment system locking up, the camera staying on and also sometimes not working. We've also had several return visits to get one of the headlight washers fixed as it kept staying out. There has been water inside the rear light unit on one side which had to be replaced. The door sense stopped working on one handle. The tailgate struts started crunching . The Adblu injector wiring broke, and its had a NOX system failure (which they appear to have done nothing about, as the fault still remains in the control unit) . The coolant level has also needed topping up a few times, although they were unable to find any leaks.
There are probably some things that i've forgotten, but I'm mainly interested in seeing if anyone else has had problems with their ZF 9 speed auto box, apart from the terrible delayed response when pulling away and then taking off when applying the accelerator pedal gently.
I do know why and when the P0716 fault is logging, but it shouldn't do it and it is a "fault" and not a "trait" as JLR claim . In my opinion ZF need to widen the parameters on their software. I know that there have been several updates already and ours is of course on the latest version.
Regards, Andrew
 
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#2 ·
Re "
Another Disco sport was provided for my wife to try in the same circumstances in the same spot that it most regularly occurs and that vehicle faulted too.
"

Can you expand a bit on the circumstances and what failed?

Thanks, you've certainly had your fair share of faults on the car, that's for sure.
 
#3 ·
Thanks for your reply.
The fault happens on a steep hill, when having to reverse, then deselect drive again. Forward motion is being detected before turbine speed is being detected, thus the plausibility error. Drive is indicated on the selector but it isn't quick enough to engage the gear ( I guess because it selects second gear, possibly) . I know ZF state that it is physically impossible for a human being to change gear faster than the mechatronics does, but it obviously can't select forward gear from reverse quick enough in this instance. The same fault has also occurred on a flat road.
Oh , I knew I'd forget something earlier, it's had two new reversing cameras too . Trouble is it is now 2 years old and I doubt we could hand it back. The dealers want to get us into a different vehicle. We would rather hand it back and get as much money back for it as possible, but will probably ens up havingbto trade it in elsewhere as they dont appear to be able to fix the faults and expectbus to live with it as a "trait" of the vehicle.
 
#4 ·
Mine had a P0716 fault come up as well, some time back, which caused mine to go into limp home mode. I got LR Assist out to it to read the fault codes but they were unable to reproduce it. JLR didn't seem interested in looking into it further either.

I frequently get a loud clunk when selecting D after being parked on our driveway overnight (it has a considerable slope). I expect the gearbox will fail one day as a result of this.

Steve
 
#6 ·
So is it erroring because the car is already moving forward, down the hill under gravity with your foot lightly on the brake (as your foot has to be on the brake to put it into D)?
 
#7 ·
That sounds to be the case, yes.

This is one of the problems with mine; I am able to select P before the car has come to a complete halt which invariably results in the loud clunk I get when I turn the selector out of P.

Granted, as the driver of the car, I shouldn't select P until the car has come to a complete halt but, conversely, most cars won't even allow you to select P until the car has come to complete halt. The DS is different in this regard and it is quite possible to select and - more worryingly - engage P whilst the car is still doing 1-2mph which I anticipate will cause significant gearbox damage when the pawl that locks the gearbox in P disintegrates under load.

This is absolutely a design fault as there is no way that the car should select P until the signal from the wheel speed sensors indicates the car is doing 0.0 mph.

Steve
 
#8 ·
Dashnine said:
So is it erroring because the car is already moving forward, down the hill under gravity with your foot lightly on the brake (as your foot has to be on the brake to put it into D)?
I've only had it fault once whilst i've been driving when I had to quickly change from forwards to reverse. The biggest issue for me is the very delayed pulling away; especially when you most need it and also the many times that it takes off when I apply the throttle lightly.
My wife says that she doesn't let it move off until the gear is selected , but I think that it must be a case of too quick a gear change(and it moving slightly before engaging the gear, although she insists that it isn't moving); although this quick gear change shouldn't be a problem and has never been a problem on the many other automatic vehicles we have driven/owned.
 
#9 ·
Just an update on this. The dealers have now bought our vehicle back. We lost about £16500 ,in the 26 months of owning this Sport. After doing a bit of research it seems that ZF are maybe going to be modifying the gear box for next year, by doing away with one of the dog clutches and replacing it with a friction type clutch.
JLR still can't sort out the problem with the reversing camera and it has been much worse since the last update. There were NOX faults and a DPF temperature sensor fault logging just before they had it back. It's a pity as the vehicle was very capable off road but dangerous on the road when pulling away or trying to accelerate quickly.
 
#10 ·
quote -This is absolutely a design fault as there is no way that the car should select P until the signal from the wheel speed sensors indicates the car is doing 0.0 mph.

Our old Freelanders 1 & 2 were both auto, and could select P while moving, or go from drive to reverse also while moving. Amazing noise as the whole system locks up. My brother ran a hire car company years back, and had a Rover 820 brought back as the driver had managed to select park on the motorway at speed. That had a bolt that dropped into a castellated gear to physically lock up the box, that was a fun rebuild.
 
#11 ·
The problem with this ZF 9 speed box is the two dog clutches that they used to enable better fuel economy from less drag caused by friction type clutches, which it appears they may be replacing one of the dog clutches with. The trouble is that the gearbox ecu has to monitor the position of the dog clutches so that they can be engaged correctly, from what I understand. With a friction clutch it doesn't need to know the position.
I totally agree with it being a design fault, but there doesn't seem to be any more that JLR can do about it apart from replace all the gearboxes with the new design when they do change it.
 
#12 ·
Where did you hear / see the gearbox is being updated?

The dog clutches are used for up changes 4-5 and 7-8 and the same downwards. Therefore any slow start or take off in other gears isn't related to the dog clutches.

I find slow starts or take offs are usually related to injudicious use of full throttle. Good old dumb torque converter gearbox's just spin the fluid until the car picks up, modern ones work out what gear it thinks the driver wants first. Don't floor it and it stays in gear and goes just fine.

Unfortunately it's all about the great gods of fuel economy and emissions, which is why modern autos achieve much nearer to or better fuel economy than the equivalent manual gearbox equipped car.
 
#13 ·
Did somebody say "gearbox"? :cool:

There's no way you should have lost £16,500 on your car, EVAUTOS, unless you'd done a load of miles in it? That doesn't sound right at all.

I'm pretty sure the gearbox should never engage P if the wheels are still moving. It makes a hell of a clunk sometimes and I'm pretty sure the lump of metal that locks the gearbox in P is going to break off any day now.
 
#14 ·
I have always regarded the occasional delay when accelerating from a stand still as "Turbo Lag" ie it takes a very brief time for the turbo to spin up and provide pressure at the engine inlet, the natural reaction is to step even harder on the throttle when the cars reaction appears to be slow, It then effectively overreacts, which is partly the reason for the car "taking off like scalded cat"as soon as this pressure arrives. I actually back off the throttle a very small amount in anticipation and progress is then better and smooth. I understand why unless a person is fairly knowledgable on the cars mechanical side the diagnosis can be incorrect, and that in a perfect world L.R. should have sorted this, but they haven"t!
So give this a try, it works for me, but I"m from an age when cars had to be driven, and not just steered.
 
#15 ·
Dashnine said:
Where did you hear / see the gearbox is being updated?

The dog clutches are used for up changes 4-5 and 7-8 and the same downwards. Therefore any slow start or take off in other gears isn't related to the dog clutches.

I find slow starts or take offs are usually related to injudicious use of full throttle. Good old dumb torque converter gearbox's just spin the fluid until the car picks up, modern ones work out what gear it thinks the driver wants first. Don't floor it and it stays in gear and goes just fine.

Unfortunately it's all about the great gods of fuel economy and emissions, which is why modern autos achieve much nearer to or better fuel economy than the equivalent manual gearbox equipped car.
Hello Dashnine,
I read here about the gearbox possibly being re designed https://www.allpar.com/forums/threads/9-speed-automatic-shifting-improvement.168628/

We have tried not accelerating so hard and various other speeds of pushing the accelerator down, with no improvement.
We had done approximately 38000 miles when they had it back a couple of days ago.
We actually went to Audi to get a price on a new Q5 and they only listed it at 22500. The online valuation from JLR was 24550 in showroom condition.
I am in the automotive trade too and am an IMI Advanced Automotive Engineer and Master Technician. Although I don't claim to know much about automatic transmissions, I have a fairly deep understanding of todays technology used in cars.
 
#16 ·
green genie said:
I have always regarded the occasional delay when accelerating from a stand still as "Turbo Lag" ie it takes a very brief time for the turbo to spin up and provide pressure at the engine inlet, the natural reaction is to step even harder on the throttle when the cars reaction appears to be slow, It then effectively overreacts, which is partly the reason for the car "taking off like scalded cat"as soon as this pressure arrives. I actually back off the throttle a very small amount in anticipation and progress is then better and smooth. I understand why unless a person is fairly knowledgable on the cars mechanical side the diagnosis can be incorrect, and that in a perfect world L.R. should have sorted this, but they haven"t!
So give this a try, it works for me, but I"m from an age when cars had to be driven, and not just steered.
Hello Green Genie,
The Discovery Sport uses a variable vane turbo (as most engines do now) which doesn't give any "turbo lag" as the boost from the turbo is linear. I think the feeling of turbo lag is the engine control unit reducing power to put less strain on the autobox (in my opinion, but i'm probably wrong).
My wife says that she has tried not depressing the accelerator as quick/much and so have I on the odd occasion I have been driving it, and it made absolutely no difference. I have spoken to one of ZF's main uk trainers on several occasions at various events that I have attended and he has previously told me that the new autoboxes can change gear much faster than is humanly possible, but with this box it seems that it just isn't correct. I also have a friend that goes around the world training technicians for JLR and he is well aware of the ongoing issues with this ZF 9 speed box .
I am also of an age "where cars had to be driven" and am quite capable of driving a vehicle to get the best out of it.
 
#17 ·
EVAUTOS said:
Dashnine said:
Where did you hear / see the gearbox is being updated?

The dog clutches are used for up changes 4-5 and 7-8 and the same downwards. Therefore any slow start or take off in other gears isn't related to the dog clutches.

I find slow starts or take offs are usually related to injudicious use of full throttle. Good old dumb torque converter gearbox's just spin the fluid until the car picks up, modern ones work out what gear it thinks the driver wants first. Don't floor it and it stays in gear and goes just fine.

Unfortunately it's all about the great gods of fuel economy and emissions, which is why modern autos achieve much nearer to or better fuel economy than the equivalent manual gearbox equipped car.
Hello Dashnine,
I read here about the gearbox possibly being re designed https://www.allpar.com/forums/threads/9-speed-automatic-shifting-improvement.168628/

We have tried not accelerating so hard and various other speeds of pushing the accelerator down, with no improvement.
We had done approximately 38000 miles when they had it back a couple of days ago.
We actually went to Audi to get a price on a new Q5 and they only listed it at 22500. The online valuation from JLR was 24550 in showroom condition.
I am in the automotive trade too and am an IMI Advanced Automotive Engineer and Master Technician. Although I don't claim to know much about automatic transmissions, I have a fairly deep understanding of todays technology used in cars.
It appears that FCA use a licensed or some other version of the ZF9, and this is a patent by FCA to remove a dog clutch from their version. Or so it reads.

I'm just hoping the gearbox in my new DS due in January is a good as the one I have now, or that I can 'train' it to be so!
 
#18 ·
As I stated above , "Slight easing of the throttle works for me,"
I was aware of the variable vane turbo, but because the written word states something that does not necessarily mean that it is so.
Keep an open mind.

.P.S. When did you last "double declutch" its second nature to me in both of the Classic cars that I drive.
 
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